S&W 500 or S&W 460 for dangerous game defense?

[rolltide]

schmidtbender
I would be interested to hear more about your penetration tests on dead steers if you would not mind sharing it.

Besides, from a ballistics standpoint the .500 and .460 are kind of like the .30-06 and the .308, as far as I can tell. There are differences, but for deer hunting purposes they seem small enough to be practically insignificant. So all other things being equal, the added flexibility of the .460 becomes kind of the deal breaker with me. Even if I end up loading my own and the ammo cost isn't an issue, I like having the additional options, I guess.

I think that is definitely true for hunting, and I am beginning to wonder if it may also be true for DG defense as well. In velcocity, energy and penetration they seem to be neck and neck. It looks like from all the data I can find and from all the comments here, the 460 and the 500 are about equal in everything except the slight advantage to the 500 in crush cavity volume due to larger diameter bullets. The only thing that could tilt decidely in favor of the 500 is if the big 700+gr bullets actually out penetrate the 400-500gr bullets in the 500 by a significant margin. Since the velocity and energy of the 700gr loads is only about 2/3's of the 400-500gr loads, I don't know if the penetration will even match the lighter loads, much less best it. I sure wish we had some penetration info on those big loads, because I have been surprised before when trying to guess penetration based on ballistics.

The only article I have where a 460 was used in defense on an Alaskan grizzly, the charging grizzly turned after the first shot at close range and was finished by 2 more shots. All three shots completely penetrated the bear. This was a 6'3" interior grizzly not a big coastal brown, but still the performance was impressive. Of course the next bear might keep coming. One incident does not establish what a round will consistently do in that situation, but plus one for a stop beats minus one, especially to the guy in the actual shooting.

Roll Tide

 

[Redhawk1]

Now that I have read all the post, I will make my contribution to this thread.

I just so happen to own both the 460 and 500 Mags. I have had 5 of the 460 and 6 of the 500 Mags. I have shot 4 inch to 8 3/8 inch 500 Mags and 5 inch to 10 inch 460 Mags. What I did was keep the guns I use and want in my gun collection. I currently have a 4 inch and 6 inch 500 Mag, and a 7.5 inch 460 Mag.

My 460 is for long distance shooting, I shot 100 to 200 yards with it all the time. Now my 500 Mags are my short and medium range handguns. My 4 inch is my back up gun and my 6 inch 500 Mag is my 100 yard cannon.

The are pro's and con's to each round. The poor for the 460 are, the ability to shoot 45 Colts, 454 Casull's and the 460 Mag, also the flat trajectory and ability for long distance shooting with a hand gun. The Con's is the bullet weight stop at 390 gr. and start at 200 gr.
The 500 Mag is a real thumper and has a big frontal area. Bullets range from 275 to 700 gr.

I don't find either round hard to handle with full loads, and I can recover from the recoil very quickly with either round. My 4 inch 500 Mad is not ported and does not have any compensator and it is not bad in my opinion.

Like someone else here posted, the 500 Mag's recoil is over rated and until you shot it, you can only speculate as to how it really is.

For defense, I would go with a 4 inch or one of the new 2 3/4 inch 500 Mags.

 

[schmidtbender]

Dead Steer tests S&W 329 44 magnum

When shot in the front between the eyes, the bullet ended up in the neck 18-24"
Didn't shoot at horn boss cause bears don't have horns.
When shot in front as if the head was missed, if no bones were hit they ended up in the guts +- 3 feet
Side shots on shoulder broke it and went into lungs
Behind the shoulder shots usually went on thru.
Remember there are hardened 300 gr bullets just a tad from being a wadcutter.
I think in factory ammo, the 300 gr Corbons would do as well as they are really a FMJ solid with a pinhole to make them legal for hunting.

from midway: Cast Performance Bullets 44 Caliber (430 Diameter) 300 Grain Lead Flat Nose Gas Check Box of 100
High-performance, heat-treated hunting bullets. Cast from virgin alloy, lubed and sized, ready for loading. Load data is included with most of the bullets and can also be found in Hodgdon's Reloading Manual (Product #210-936).

 

[Tall Pine]

Schmidtbender,

How far away did you shoot these dead steer? Can we assume the flesh, muscle, and bone had not decompossed to a significant degree?

My buddy just got a 329pd and I am very impressed. I plan to get one, especially if real word experiences like yours indicate it would do well on big animals like the bear.

TIA

p.s. Rolltide: What did you end up getting, and how do you like it?

 

[Big Boomer]

I own both, but in different platforms. I have to say that the 500 was waaaay more than I had expected.

Please read my range report here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=327299&highlight=met+my+match

I have changed the grips but have yet to shoot it again. (honestly kinda scared too)

I really like the long barrels IMHO. I would not recommend shooting hot 200 grains out of the 460, significant flame cutting results. It will also let off a fireball that will set your target on fire
gratuitous pics below

The 500 in the BFR with hot loads was well just painful in every single bullet weight. This is a freakin monster of a load. Think of it like a 223 vs a 45/70




500 grainer

 

[General Geoff]

That's one impressive muzzle blast.

 

[florida1098]

My first choice although I know this is a revolver thread would be the glock 20. Numerous shot follow-ups, light weight, 15 rounds, Glock reliability, 10mm round, and really reasonably priced.

 

[Redhawk1]

florida1098, sorry that is a poor choice for dangerous game defense, which is the title of this thread.

I have a LAR Grizzly in 45 Win Mag, and I would not choose that for dangerous game defense.

 

[Big Boomer]

I did forget to ask what exact "dangerous game" you were planning on running into?

Bear, definitely the 500. But in all actuality you really need a big bore rifle.
Cougar, the 460.
Snake, neither
Rabid skunks, 22lr
2 legged snakes 45acp/357

 

[Camp Cook]

I see that all of my pictures have disappeared so here they are again.

My Ruger SRH's in 454 Casull and my Ruger Bisley Vaquero's in 45 Colt.







Here is a pic of the interior grizzly I shot this spring it's size is very desceptive in the picture it actually measure app 8' nose to tail would stand about 11 - 11 1/2' tall and weights about 1000lbs and it's skull without the front teeth in measures 23.81 inches.

To make the all time Boone and Crockett record book the skull needed to measure 24" which is going up against coastal/kodiaks so if I'm lucky with the teeth in it will make the record book.



After studying the skull I see that the only hit that will instantly stop a grizzly is a shot to the skull/brain and considering how small the brain area is compared to the amount of meat around it the odds of not connecting are huge.

I also see that if you can place your shot that even a 30-30 with appropriate bullets would get the job done which is why I do not recommend that the average person carry a 460 or 500 S&W just too much gun to shoot fast and accurately.

FYI the skull at the brain area is not as thick as I was lead to believe.

 

[Poprivit]

Four inch S&W .500 + 600-gr. Ballistic Supply hardcast bullets (MV-1250 fps, ME-2082 ft. lb.) = one dead anything. In my case it was a very old giraffe, 2100 lbs, 18-6 tall. Carrying in a shoulder holster is no big deal, and it doesn't bounce on your hip.

 

[Loomis]

Neither.

I'd reccommend a ruger super redhawk in 454 if you wan't a handgun for bear defense. The problem with these big monster handguns is that they are no fun to carry around. Single action revolvers are a little lighter and more compact for a given caliber. For this reason, people used to convert ruger blackhawk revolvers into 5 shot 454casul for precisely the purpose you are intending.

Maybe they still do this conversion, i don't know.

 

[Bendutro]

How many of these opinions are based on first hand experience vs. anecdotes?

X frames are too big but a Ruger isn't?
My John Ross 5" 500 weighs ~6oz more than a 2.5" .480 Ruger. Most of that is barrel.

Long barrels and compensators are recommended?
I've been shooting bullets from 240gr to 600gr out of comped and non comped guns and I do not favor the compensated guns. JMHO, but it's based on experience not rumor or stories.

Pick the gun you can shoot well, practice makes more difference than hardware. Most of the rest is angels dancing on the heads of pins.

 

[Redhawk1]

I read the last 4 comments and agree with Bendutro and Poprivit.

Camp Cook the first shot from a 500 Mag is no different than any other handgun, and if you shot a 500 Mag as much as I do, the second shot is just as accurate as my first. I know, I have taken 2 shots with in a split second, and I have it all on video on one of my bear hunts.

My 4 inch 500 Mag is very easy to carry, I have no idea where you guys get they are to big to carry????

 

[CSA 357]

Sounds Like You Need A Long Gun, Not A Hand Gun, A 12 Ga Slug Would Do The Job!

 

[Cosmoline]

Old thread, but schmidtbender speaks words of wisdom. Words my lower back can attest to. When I first got up here as a greenhorn I was packing a Ruger SRH around on the trails on a heavy, hot, and restrictive duty belt. Talk about a way to ruin a good hike! I eventually ditched it and ended up with various carbines. Easier to tote, easier to aim, and just as much stopping power as the boomers. These new X-Frames might be interesting for handgun hunters (esp the 460) but are not terribly practical as a defensive weapon against bruins. Not unless you're really good with four pound wheelguns and have practiced a great deal.

 

[Camp Cook]

Redhawk1; Camp Cook the first shot from a 500 Mag is no different than any other handgun, and if you shot a 500 Mag as much as I do, the second shot is just as accurate as my first. I know, I have taken 2 shots with in a split second, and I have it all on video on one of my bear hunts.

Not saying that it isn't possible saying that it is not for me...

Just thinking what loads are you shooting so you can shoot a 500 S&W so quickly?

 

[Tall Pine]

Camp,

just curious, what would you guess is todays cost (US$) to shorten the barrel like you did on your SRH. It looks great!

Any guess on what it weights after the shortening?

TIA

 

[Camp Cook]

Just asked the gunsmith that did mine he quoted $300.00 to shorten and install front sight rib + cost of fiber optic front sight and spring kit...

He's in BC, Canada so it is probably not possible to get him to work on it but here is his web site link so you can get a local gunsmith to check out the work and copy it.

http://www.armco-guns.com/ click on whats new at Armco then scroll down until you see the pictures of the shortened SRH's and the sight rib.

I never weighed the gun after it was shortened.

 

[Tall Pine]

Thank you

 

[Redhawk1]

Camp Cook
Just thinking what loads are you shooting so you can shoot a 500 S&W so quickly?

I am shooting some hot loaded 370 gr. and 440 gr. bullets. Very hot loads.

 

[Camp Cook]

I'm shooting 355gr/360gr @ 1445fps out of the 4.25" SRH and 1520fps out of the 7.5 SRH

405gr @ 1330fps out of the 4.25" SRH and the same load does 1420fps out of a 7.5" SRH in 454 Casull.

These are not hot loads...

What velocities does a very hot loaded 370gr & 440gr do out of a 500S&W?