Submachine guns are underrated

[Brick]

Hello yall,

A lot of citizens looking towards personal defense firearms very often quabble about the best rifle, shotgun, pistol, et cetera.

How come I don't see the submachine gun thrown in also? Face it folks: the full-stocked MP5 is only about 1 cubit (about 18 inches) in length. That's pretty small, but let's not also forget the collapsable versions.

Every firearm has its strengths and weaknesses. An assualt rifle has little place in a crowed market, a pistol is quite suited for plains type work, and a shotgun isn't very suited to extreme close range. But mirror the above and each shines in their respective places.

Why the subgun? Well, let's list the pluses and minuses of each:

+ Lower recoil than most longer-range rifles and higher-powered shotguns
+ Chambered in 9mm, they can eat one of the more common rounds on the planet
+ Are capable of very good noise and flash suppression (ya know it 'twas comin', the MP5SD, STEN Mark 2 SD for example)
+ Very compact and capable for most scenarios, fit well between close range and intermediate range
+ Most are capable of feeding JHP, JSP, Glasers, FMJs as appropiate

- Most subguns aren't effective beyond 150-200m
- Most won't penetrate higher levels of body armor, the lower levels only at closer ranges

What's not to like in a subgun? '

GophereverydecentcitizenshouldhaveasubbieGopher

 

[jsalcedo]

I agree.


Maybe if the laws ever get fixed, instead of CCW we can have an MP5 slung over our shoulder.

 

[Byron Quick]

Tell you what: contact the man who is considered to be the top criminal defense attorney in your region. Relate your self defense plans to him. Ask if you can have his card to call if you ever need to defend yourself.

I've got a submachine gun. I live in a self defense friendly state. I have been told by top notch criminal defense attorneys to use another gun...just about any other gun. Elephant gun. Black powder cannon. And so on.

 

[Jeff White]

They aren't popular because they shoot pistol ammunition. If you are going to carry a rifle size package, you might as well shoot a real rifle.

An M4A1 with a Noveski 10" upper is just as compact as your MP5 with all the terminal effects of 5.56x45 out to about 100 meters.

Jeff

 

[cuervo]

Well, on Bowers' Board, they're averaging around $15,000 for a real MP5.

That is one Rem 870 + a whole lot of practice ammo.

 

[Medusa]

In urban environment I'd prefer P90 over any M16 family member.

Yes you can get the rifle in same size, but why is the SMG so popular in armed forces? 9x19mm is a lesser round than 5.56x45mm but it also offers lesser overpenetration issue and that IS the issue in crowded environment. Besides, SMGs are small, MP5A5 for example is 490mm long with stock fully collapsed, P90 is 500mm long, weights 3kg loaded with 50 rounds of very capable ammo.

Small note: I do not compare 5.7x28 to 5.56x45 as it is apples vs oranges issue.

EDIT: spelling

 

[mete]

'The SMG is the biggest builder of false self confidence' I knew someone who carried a Thompson in WWII, always on full auto yet he could fire one, two, or however many he chose - but he used it EVERY day.For a typical HD situation ,untrained , no practice it's a disaster !!

 

[strambo]

I think subguns are way overrated. They're just big pistols. They are the least versatile long arms. Good only in CQB, OK for short engagements 100yds or less outside of CQB scenarios, but lacking any real stopping power. At least handguns can be concealed and carried 24/7.

Carbines and shotguns have great power and work well in CQB. A shotgun w/ slugs is effective out to the max eff. range of a SMG. A carbine considerably more. Downside is overall length...but we're already talking about longarms. As far as overpenetration concerns, 5.56 ammo such as Hornady TAP or similar varmit type load penetrates less than 9mm and hits a lot harder. I haven't brought up cost and availability of subguns 'cause that doesn't relate directly to their effectiveness. I could have had an MP5 in Iraq...I kept my AK.

 

[Krenn]

are we talking about modern pistol carbines or full-auto tommy guns?

if carbines, more power to you, although I prefer shotguns for filling the medium-range role.

with full-auto tommy guns, I'd suggest that you repeal the machine gun ban... and then buy a shotgun. a tommy gun is not a weapon you use when you care about collateral damage. and civilians realy should care about collateral damage.

 

[saltydog]

Tell you what: contact the man who is considered to be the top criminal defense attorney in your region. Relate your self defense plans to him. Ask if you can have his card to call if you ever need to defend yourself.

I've got a submachine gun. I live in a self defense friendly state. I have been told by top notch criminal defense attorneys to use another gun...just about any other gun. Elephant gun. Black powder cannon. And so on.

Same problem here. Police Dept didn't care what I used in self defense but they told me the news media would cry tears over the poor helpless criminal and try to crusify me.

 

[bogie]

buzzguns are one heckuva way to make once fired brass.

If you miss with the first shot, you'll probably miss with the rest.

If you hit with the first shot, you'll probably miss with the rest.

For standard self-defense, a handgun or shotgun, and learn how to aim.

 

[jsalcedo]

I've fired at least half a dozen different sub guns.

With very litle practice I was able to get all shots into a man sized sillouette
at 15 to 25 yards.

With the MP5 I was able to do much better.

As far as the Tommy gun goes controlled accurate bursts were a piece of cake.

 

[jefnvk]

but why is the SMG so popular in armed forces?

I wasn't aware it was.

IF I were going select fire, and dropping over ten grand on a gun, it sure wouldn't be a subgun. It is gonna be a rifle.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I've got a submachine gun. I live in a self defense friendly state. I have been told by top notch criminal defense attorneys to use another gun...just about any other gun.

Ditto! Plus the thought of a $15,000 gun getting banged around in the police lockup for a few years, maybe forever, is enough to make me reach for the 870.

 

[rudolf]

Consider that the German army wanted the Schmeisser MP18 for trench fighting. When the US came with their pump guns and Buckshot, they called it's effect inhumane. Obiously, even they rated the shotgun higher for really close battle.

The Germany army isn't fond of the subgun, only a few like tank crews were issued them . So tell me, which army IS fond of the subgun.

 

[Technosavant]

Armies used to like subguns; when they thought trench warfare was likely, short range engagements where volume of fire reigned supreme, and the submachine gun seemed to fit the bill.

Now, it seems theorists expect engagements at 50-200ish yards to be the norm, and the subgun loses a lot of punch at that range. With the modern assault rifle, volume of fire is unchanged, the ammo has more punch, and the extra recoil is not a huge deal. As a matter of fact, volume of fire is beginning to give way to accurate fire, hence the current trend toward 3 round burst modes over full automatic fire.

The subgun is worthwhile up close, but a shotgun has more punch (if not volume of fire). It is popular for those who expect to engage at very close ranges (SWAT teams, special forces planning on building clearing), but for others, they pick something more capable.

As for SHTF planning, I guess most of us aren't planning on there being a glut of easily obtainable subguns should such things happen. Our plans and desires are based on what we can get our hands on, and personally I would rather plan to have a few more "pedestrian" guns and a LOT more ammo if I need to hole up.

 

[boofus]

Because a 20 year old MP5 costs $13,000-$15,000 and there are very limited numbers of them.

Also do you want to give it up to the cops as evidence when the prosecutor decides to be a PITA?

 

[Justin]

Brick, you've convinced me.

So, what submachinegun do you keep at home for self defense?

 

[nomadboi]

Heck, if I could afford something like a Kel-Tec SU16 (and convince the wife that it was a worthwhile purchase), that'd be my path of choice. Folds up nice and small- could fit in a backpack easily- but with the advantages of a real rifle.

 

[Medusa]

As Rudolf and Technosavant noted, the SMG was created for fighting in tight places, such as buildings, trenches. SMG has it niche and is very effective within it, it does not stand the comparision to the rifle in any form and was never ment to be a replacement for it, only augmenting the rifle in situations where rifle cannot be used effectively. As I noted, I'd prefer P90 over any M16 type rifle in urban environment, like buildings and such, for home defence it has cleaner lines and better manouverability for tight cornering. But don't get me wrong, I do prefer rifle (G36K) in open terrain. Argumenting is healthy

 

[sturmruger]

Age???

Brick I want to start off by saying that you are correct small pistol caliber machine guns are great for personal defense. Look at the Secret Service, a lot of the suits stash a small MP5 under their coats from what I hear. Of course they are federal law enforcement officers and can use any weapon they want.

It doesn't sound like you are old enough to have a carry permit, but some day when you get one I am sure you will realize how ridiculous it would be to carry a sub gun around with you 24/7. When I am carrying I am usually at places like Borders or walking around the mall with my wife. While I can think of several ways to carry a small machine gun, I can't think of too many instances where I would need the extra firepower. My 10 rounds of .40 so far have been all I need. I have shot a full auto HK before and while it was a ton of fun I don't think in a self defense situation I would be using full auto. The three round burst seemed a lot more practical to me, and if I could get approved for a NFA weapon I would want it to have both options.

While your idea of carrying a full auto pistol caliber gun sounds good it just isn’t very practical in the real world.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

buzzguns are one heckuva way to make once fired brass.

If you miss with the first shot, you'll probably miss with the rest.

If you hit with the first shot, you'll probably miss with the rest.

For standard self-defense, a handgun or shotgun, and learn how to aim.

You might add:

If you fire several shots per burst it will take you longer to get back on target if your first burst didn't neutralize it.

Someone else also asked, "Why are subguns so popular in the military?"

The answer is, they aren't. The US Armed Forces only issue subguns for limited purposes.

If you fire several shots per burst your magazine will run dry quicker.

The ideal burst from a hand-held weapon is one shot.

 

[KaceCoyote]

I'd rather carry a suitably equipped submachine gun than a semi automatic handgun in the combatzone. Consider the MP7, the size of a rather large pistol. Fully automatic, and quite controllable. Has an extending stock, folding vertical foregrip and can be fired like a rifle if so desired.

 

[KaceCoyote]

You might add:

If you fire several shots per burst it will take you longer to get back on target if your first burst didn't neutralize it.

Someone else also asked, "Why are subguns so popular in the military?"

The answer is, they aren't. The US Armed Forces only issue subguns for limited purposes.

If you fire several shots per burst your magazine will run dry quicker.

The ideal burst from a hand-held weapon is one shot.

KSK,GSG9, SEALS, SAS and various Russian armed forces all seem to like the subguns plenty. The Israelis didnt do too bad with their UZI yaknow...

 

[Jeff White]

KSK,GSG9, SEALS, SAS and various Russian armed forces all seem to like the subguns plenty. The Israelis didnt do too bad with their UZI yaknow...

Who is KSK?

I hate to burst your bubble, but the submachine gun's day in the sun is over. Everyone has switched over or is in the process of switching over to short assault rifles.

I'd rather carry a suitably equipped submachine gun than a semi automatic handgun in the combatzone. Consider the MP7, the size of a rather large pistol. Fully automatic, and quite controllable. Has an extending stock, folding vertical foregrip and can be fired like a rifle if so desired.

Yeah, that would be real smart, carry something that looked very different from everyone else. Can you say target indicator? The truth is that when outside the wire, you'd want a rifle like everyone else so some enemy combatant didn't get the idea that you were special with your kewl subgun and decide you were a high value target. Inside the wire, you'd wish you just had a pistol so you didn't have your bigger weapon kncoking into things in the chow hall and PX and you wouldn't have to worry about picking it up and carrying it with you when you went from place to place.

As I noted, I'd prefer P90 over any M16 type rifle in urban environment, like buildings and such, for home defence it has cleaner lines and better manouverability for tight cornering.

Yep, a great choice as long as you're not concerned about how long it takes to incapacitate your enemy after you shoot him. I'd pick short and maneuverable over terminal effects any day of the week....NOT!

Jeff