Submachine guns are underrated

[rudolf]

Well, the special forces in Vietnam did say kind words about the Carl Gustav. Any tool sucks outside it's niché.

There was just an article about the M45 in a German gun rag (Visier), I guess you are referring to it. The M45 was sort of 'cool' cause CIA folks used it as a deniable weapon. That made it fancy. If I understood others correctly, most folks prefered an AK/M16 or the like.

If I may sum up my my little uncredited opinion,

For army, SHTF, urban combat, or the like, take an AK/M16,

For pistol range stuff, like in your home or other real close stuff, grab your shotgun.

If you want to scare a crowd, or are a member of the SAS, enjoy your subgun.

 

[Medusa]

Thanks man, anyway I read an article (not the mentioned Visier) that noted the Carl Gustav to be rugged and relatively accurate (the one missing crates must have been junk) and put up good service, and very underpowered in silenced form (operator noted that it had killing power in extreme close ranges). But yes, it was "deniable" weapon and later replaced. But admit, jungle isn't decent place for anything below the rifle class.

I'd prefer P90 at home defence (i do trust the stopping power of 5.7 and don't think i'm mistaken) as it doesn't make too much noise, wouldn't shoot neighbours and wouldn't make me to repair my home (as the bullets stay in body or have marginal speed when through BG). Besides, it is easier to keep under bed, as it's small, has clean lines and is ambidextrous. But haven't bothered, as FiveseveN is sufficient. Outside? G36K definitely.

 

[oh blanky]

All you smg experts with your snarky expert comments are clearly lacking one thing.

AN UZI OR MP5 IN YOUR GUNSAFE!

I'm not and I love smgs, limitations and all.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

Good Morning Oh Blanky!
I think you mat be missing the point. It is not a question of liking or loving an inanimate object, but rather its usefulness.
As stated earlier, i believe smg's are fun. I also believe that they have extremely limited usefullness.

Having said that, i have carried them for years and have put a lot of rounds down range through a lot of them.
I have no fascination with them and have no desire to own one, but will shoot them as the (diminishing) opportunities present themselves.
I also believe that need and want are two seperate issues, and i am ecstatic that you own and enjoy your sub caliber machine guns.

 

[mindpilot]

Man that MP-5A looks WAY HOT !!!!!! GIMME GIMME GIMME!!!!!!!!!

 

[Pat_Rogers]

Frame of Reference

We all have a frame of reference to draw on. We reach certain conclusions based on our experiences or exposure to certain stimuli.
Most of us have formed opinions based on what we have seen in the movies or on the tube, though lately the net has become a (stilted) source.
Many (most) WW2/ Korea era war movies have a screen "hero" weilding some type of sub caliber machine gun (a sterling exception was "Sands of Iwo Jima) where the elderly Squad Leader was armed with the TOE weapon- a US Rifle, Caliber .30, M1).

Based on the images across the screen, many look at a smg as something perhaps magical, and carried by all true matinee idols etc.
They have a very high CDI factor,no doubt.

A look at WW2 TOE's show that the smg was not a very prevelant weapon.
The following shows the TOE for the Marine Divisions in WW2. Note that this is taken from sources, but actual numbers may be in conflict with other sources. It gives a fair representation.
The alpha D-G shows what each Marine Division was authorized during specific periods during the war. D=1942, E=1943, F=1944, and G=1945

1911 M1Rifle M1Carbine Shotgun SMG BAR
D 798 7406 5285 0 Reising 4208 513

E 290 8030 11074 306 TSMG 78 558

F 399 5436 10953 306 TSMG 49 853

G 1707 6261 10371 306 TSMG 49 867

Note that there were a lot of smg's in the D TOE, but after the M1 Carbine came on line, the number of sub caliber machine guns dropped.
Generally speaking, the rifles were used by infantryman, while carbines and smg's were used by those who had other jobs- leaders, crew served weapons, drivers, communicators and such.
The changing TOE reflects real world experience as well as projected use.
Remember that this is what is authorized, not necessarily what was used

I apologize for the tables- i can't get the computer to format it correctly.

 

[Harv]

Ive had some SMG experience with the M3and M3A1 grease gun.
fun toy, but that's about it.
I liked the Thompson, accurate, but a heavy pig
Mac 10, great if you need to kill a lot of people inside a broom closet and you standing in the door way... Horrible reliability

If the SMG was still a good choice, you would still be seeing a lot of Units still using them. The fact that you don't and that more and more have switched should be a clue!!


I'll take a M4 anyday for just about anything I need to do. I'll save my shotgun for Pheasant hunting.......

Jeff and Pat are dead on (not like they need my endorsment)


Harv

 

[JMusic]

I have to agree with Jeff White the M4 does seem to be the direction of the future. I believe they are trying and to my understanding solved the overpenatration issue with 55 grain hp's. Easy gun to shoot. I've used a Mac 10 in 380 and they do shoot good. My favorite ourdoor in city auto was the Thompson in 45acp. I found familurazation was short term and you could not beet it for hitting someone with. Hell they must weight 12 lbs which was the drawback. The awe factor was impressive. Our armory had about 5 of these in 95% condition. Sure like to have one. I think we all know full auto's are not practical for those of us who are civi's now. But a great discussion and one based on a wealth of knowledge.
Jim

 

[oh blanky]

You are right Pat, smg's are more or less obsolete, especially with the M4 platform in it's various configurations.

I'm going to go sit in the corner and fondle my Uzi now.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

I'm going to go sit in the corner and fondle my Uzi now.

Personaly, i prefer to fondle women, but hey, whatever floats your boat.....

 

[mrmeval]

My Dad loved the Thompson, said it was a good brush clearing gun.

He praised the BAR but never persued getting one even though he'd stated he liked one.

I've fired at least half a dozen different sub guns.

With very litle practice I was able to get all shots into a man sized sillouette
at 15 to 25 yards.

With the MP5 I was able to do much better.

As far as the Tommy gun goes controlled accurate bursts were a piece of cake.

 

[TooTaxed]

That WW II table of issuance for the Marines is interesting...after the first year of combat, roughly six shotguns issued for every SMG...nearly two carbines for every Garand... The BARs provided full auto rifle capability, though those 20-rd mags were pretty small for that function. Note that M2 carbine and LMG figures weren't listed.

Wonder what a similar table is for today?

 

[Pat_Rogers]

That WW II table of issuance for the Marines is interesting...after the first year of combat, roughly six shotguns issued for every SMG...nearly two carbines for every Garand... The BARs provided full auto rifle capability, though those 20-rd mags were pretty small for that function. Note that M2 carbine and LMG figures weren't listed.

Wonder what a similar table is for today?

Too Taxed,
I didn't include all waepons because of difficulty formatting.
Please note the following.
The M1 Rifle was issued to everyone in a Rifle Squad with the exception of the BAR man. The number of BAR's per squad varied, but Korean War up to early 60's had 3 BAR's per squad. Remember that the BAR is an automatic rifle, and for the designed use, the 20 round mag swere apparently sufficient (there were some attempts to increase this, but with 3 per squad you had a fairly substantial base of fire).
The M2 Carbine was adopted in 1945- ergo, not included in the TOE as they didn't exist when it was written.
Shotguns were generally TE weapons, not TO- that is issued to the organization, not the individual. Appx 100 shotguns were issued to each infantry regiment, and primary use was guard duty, MP's for POW control etc. That doesn't mean that some- like Corpsman, who wanted more then their pistol- didn't use them, just that a shotgun- like the sub caliber machine gun- has limited infantry use.


Those whose job didn't involve fighting with the TO weapon- officers, truck drivers, communicators etc, received the M1 Carbine. The support side is always larger then the trigger puller side.
The reason so many smg's were issued in 42 was the simple fact that the carbine didn't come into production until late 1941. The M1928 smg was already in the system, and those and the M50 (and later M55 isued to the Marine Parchute Bn's) were used instead. When the M1 Carbine came on line, the smg's were put away.

M1917A1 HMG M1919A4 LMG M2HB

D 544 656 360

E 108 682 343

F 162 302 161

G 162 356 162

 

[Pat_Rogers]

if i cant hav a"can"it wont make my ears bleed like the 223 out of 14".

but im just a hillbilly who knows alittle about guns has a few and hope he never has to fire a angry shot with them.

While the cumulative effect of short term exposure to high noise will be hearing loss, it may not be as catastrophic as described by the poster above.

During the infamous Miami FBI Shooting on 11April86, Matix was shot in the right wrist at the begining of the fight (after firing only one round of 12 ga #6 shot) probably fired by SA Grogan 9mm at appx 8yds.
SA McNeill, after being hit in his shooting hand by a 223 round fired by Platt returned fire with the last 2 rounds in his revolver at a distance of 2 yds and struck
Matix 2x, once in the neck and once in the face, in front of the right ear, probably renedering him unconcious for several minutes.
Platt leaned across the front seat on the car, and fired 13 rounds of .223 from his Mini 14 directly in front of Matix face inside a car, the concussive effects of the firing apparently did not damage either Matix eyes or years.
"The corneas of Matix's eyes were intact at autopsy, and the absence of blood in the earcanals suggests that his eardrums were also intact"
Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986 FBI Firefight
W. French Anderson, MD

Matix regained conciousness later and made his way- with Platt- into a bureau car wher SA Mireles caused them to cease being earthly oxygen consumers by shooting both in the head with his .38.

Being inside a closed location during a 5.56 fight isn't fun. Neither is the noise debilitating. Distracting to some, maybe. Damaging over the long run- absolutely.

There is a major difference between shooting and fighting. Anyone can shoot- mechanically it isn't difficult. Only certain people can fight.
Being injured, disoriented etc is tough, but tough guys will often fight through it.
Yesterday NYPD PO Stewart was shot through the heart by a piece of garbage. PO Stewart, though mortally wounded, drove his auto after the bad guy, and eventually walked into the ER of KCH where he expired over 5 hours later.

There is conjecture and there is evidence. Because it didn't happen to Matix doesn't of course mean it hasn't/ won't happen to another. I haven't seen it/ experienced it also means that my frame of reference is that while noise is tough, bullets are a bio hazard and the guy who is trying to kill you needs to be dealt with first.

 

[Beren]

Submachineguns are fun for play. I hope to own an Uzi someday for that purpose. If something serious happens, I'll grab one of the AR-15's.

 

[loose cannon]

i apologize for not explaining earlier my figure of speech;"make my ears bleed like a 223 outta 14"i think most here with the exception of pat_rogers took it in the spirit i ment it.

a little of my history;ive ownwed 3 .223/5.56 guns 2 ar15s and 1 ruger mini14.
the 20"ars were bad enough when it came to noise the 18.5"mini14 was flat out obnoxious to me.i can just imagine the noise a m4 14"ar makes and im not even close to interested in 1 but no big deal it leaves more for you guys.

i like the ak in 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 for several reasons one of which is the lower percieved noise levels it puts out. i normaly use good hearing and eye protection when shooting but i have gone without just to see what its like and the 223 is far more painfull to me.i dont kno about you guys ,but as i get older i become less tolerant of noise. so ill stick to my commie calibers and leave the 223 to others.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

Hi loose cannon,
Thanks for posting your comments. I of course had no idea how you wanted your statement taken, which is why i asked for documentation.

The errornet is full of things misconstrued, primarily because one cannot see the poster, and small things like facial expressions etc aren't there to give the subtle hints.
Certainly i have no more way then you as far as knowing how anyone took it.

In any event, i wanted to clarify your statement before six thousand people go online and state with all of their authority that firing a 5.56 inside will make your ears bleed.
I haven't looked at any documentation as to the actual noise level of the 5.45x39/ 7.62x39 as opposed to 5.56x45, but i'll make an effort to do so.

 

[akodo]

Hello yall,
<snip>
shotgun isn't very suited to extreme close range.

Boggle. The shotgun is EXTREMELY suited to close range work, well, unless you've got a goose gun length barrel.

Short barreled shoulder weapons are extremely effective close range weapons. Might as well put the most effective rounds in the gun

Your list

+ Lower recoil than most longer-range rifles and higher-powered shotguns
(except .223 recoils pretty lightly, by the time you have enough training to be proficient with a full auto subgun, you would have tamed the recoil of a .223 as well)
+ Chambered in 9mm, they can eat one of the more common rounds on the planet
(this also applies to pistols. but lets take it one step farther. Most common round = .22LR, so is a single shot bolt action rifle a good self defense weapon?)
+ Are capable of very good noise and flash suppression (ya know it 'twas comin', the MP5SD, STEN Mark 2 SD for example)
(a supressed gun would be nice, don't bother with muffs, but really, how does a supressor increase the home defense capabiliites of a weapon?)
+ Very compact and capable for most scenarios, fit well between close range and intermediate range
(lots of more capable weapons also fit well between close range and intermediate range)
+ Most are capable of feeding JHP, JSP, Glasers, FMJs as appropiate
(all of which are less effective than 12guage slugs, or fmjs from a rifle)

What's not to like? Full auto or bust SMGs are harder to master than a pistol, but deliver the same potentcy of blow. a semi-auto 'carbine' is nice, easier to shoot accurately than a pistol, but again delivers the same low potency blow, when an intermediate rifle round would be equally accurate, easy, and compact, but more potent.

 

[akodo]

Armies used to like subguns; when they thought trench warfare was likely, short range engagements where volume of fire reigned supreme, and the submachine gun seemed to fit the bill.

I would also like to note that Armies were choosing subguns when the option was basically Subgun vs Full Power bolt action rifle. Then the intermediates showed up, and gave access to close to the best of both worlds.

 

[loose cannon]

no probs pat i wished id clarified sooner.tho i figure if a sound was going to make ones ears bleed it'd be louder than any smallarms could make.my impressions on noise are probably different than others as we all are different.

its been a few years since i last fired 223 out of a dpms postban ar15 but even without the flashhider it was still very loud to me.a couple weeks ago i fired my sar2 romainian 5.45 ak clone without hearing protection twice while its still pretty loud it doesnt hold a candle to 223 out of 20" and im sure 14"is far worse.the 7.62 is even more quiet having a lower pitch as well.

suppresors would make them even more "polite"but in missouri they are forbiden to non le non sot.were working to change this someday.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

Thanks loose cannon!
You have got me thinking, and i'll try to get the Db level for the various former Sov guns as a comparison.
It might be pretty interesting!

 

[loose cannon]

i agree it'd be good to see the raw numbers.

or i could be fulla crap and my hearings already shot beyond redemption.i have a couple of new shooting buddys i havent shot with yet who just happen to have 16"m4 types.i may need to do a same time comparison of the 2.

itll be awhile b4 i can post results because i need to go trucking and get some miles in b4 this den/armory/computer room is repoed with the rest of my house