Submachine guns are underrated

[CAS700850]

On November 14, I spent the afternoon working with a local SWAT team on warrant and search legal issues. When the work was done, they invited me to stick around for a while for open range work. During this time, I got a good amount of trigger time on an MP-5SD and an M-4. These are two of the three issue long guns for the SWAT team (short-barrel Benelli shotguns are the third). I had great fun with both. The armourer/weapons instructor told me when it was done that they are going to be phasing out the MP-5 in favor of the M-4, as they have purchased excellent suppressors for several of the M-4 rifles. Prior to this, the MP-5 was maintained for the noise issue.

There is no doubt that the short assault rifle is surpassing the subgun, and is superior in terms of the terminal balistics.

That said, I just love the MP-5 family of subguns. I shoot them very well, better than the M-4 or AK. It just fits me. Were money no object, I'd have one.

 

[bamawrx]

After shooting my g'paws MP-5 I fell in love with the gun. I would rather use an M-4 as has been stated by others, but I think its perfect for small children and women. My 9 yr old rocked with the MP-5 right from the start. He was able to shoot on the move and produce nice short bursts onto the target. We used IDPA cardboard targets, and believe me you wouldn't want be that guy.

Lets assume that MP-5's will become legal again and fall into the $1,000 range for select fire, then it becomes a viable option for home-d for the family. Afterall, its for the children.

 

[Beethoven]

The armourer/weapons instructor told me when it was done that they are going to be phasing out the MP-5 in favor of the M-4, as they have purchased excellent suppressors for several of the M-4 rifles.

What do police depts. do with guns like that when they no longer need them?

Civilian auction??

 

[boofus]

Some PDs have transferable guns in their armories. FFLs try to find those depts and encourage them to "trade in those worn out old guns for brand spankin' new M4s and G36s".

So they end up trading a transferable $15,000 Thompson for 3 or 4 $700 Post-sample M4s. It works out in the end, the PD gets new equipment and the FFL makes a killing.

 

[Medusa]

Sorry Jeff, I do not try to prove you wrong to put the 5.7 in superior stance over 5.56. my point was that the 5.7 performs well in it's niche - personal defence. whole reason was to give heavy enough firepower to non-frontline troops (like tankers, MPs, drivers, security detail in any vessel) to defend themselves until cavalry arrives. as noted - just a tool for specific job. And why is the fact, that the 5.7 round doesn't penetrate human body, considered to be a serious mishap? If you have to shoot someone why waste energy due the bullet that goes through the BG and still goes on? The fact that the bullet stays in the body means that the bullet tranfers all it's energy to the body and thus giving a bigger shock. If 5.56, say, has half of it's energy after going through the body (let's keep it strictly to military rounds, as military cannot use hollowpoints and otherwise doctored rounds) then the difference in passed-over energy is definitely smaller between it and 5.7.

Ok, experts, how much velocity the 5.56 FMJ loses going trough human body?

Anyway I made some calculations: to transfer a similar amount of energy to the body, comparing to the 5.7, the 5.56 round must lose more than a 55 % of it's velocity (at 55% it transfers 513.4 J). Note that the round fragmentation is not taken into account (didn't find the way to put it to the calculation, as it is late at night (2000GMT), the fragmentation transfers a lot of energy, but still the speed of fragments in summa summarum must be below 45% of original) and all calculations are based on the figures below and extreme close ranges as the bullets lose velocity in different rate.

Cartridge (all military standarts), maximum kinetic energy

9x19 mm (8.04 g, 380 m/s), Ek = 580.49 J, that is 9.13 J/mm^2 (Joules over cross-section's surface area);
.45ACP (14.9 g, 253 m/s), Ek = 476.87 J, that is 4.66 J/mm^2
5.7x28 mm (2 g, 715 m/s), Ek = 511.23 J, that is 20.05 J/mm^2

some riflerounds:
5.56x45 mm (4.01 g, 920 m/s), Ek = 1697 J, that is 69.92 J/mm^2
7.62x39 mm (7.91 g, 710 m/s), Ek = 1993.7 J, that is 43,74 J/mm^2

My point? while the 5.7 is not a rifle round it isn't very marginal to it, as the energies (2 to 3 times smaller) are in the same magnitude, so more hits are needed, it's still superior to pistol rounds.

My point of argue? I do not make the 5.56 less capable, but my whole point, also in other arguments, is that the 5.7 is underrated by comparing it to 5.56, ie measuring it in the niche it's not for. And my thought it so because the tendency to marginalize equipment made outside of US (so it seems here). Prove me wrong (NOTE - do not bring AK-s in here as 5.7 has never been compared to the 7.62x39 in these threads, all the arguments are 5.7x28 vs 5.56x45).

 

[30 cal slob]

Subguns are like tater chips.

You can't have just one.

Anyways, as much as I love the closed-bolt MP-5, I have to say that a registered-receiver Uzi and an AWC Mk9 go together like peanut butter 'n jelly.

 

[Essex County]

My knowledge is woefully limited. M16 courtesy of USAF, M2 carbine ditto. and a number of rounds through Sten guns courtesy of the Turkish Air Force. I much prefer my current AR 15 tactical carbine.....Just one opinion.... Essex County

 

[TooTaxed]

I've had a fair amount of experience with sub guns from a number of countries through the '60s and early '70s...my Special Forces unit ran us through everything they could get their hands on. Haven't fired many of the newer ones. In general control over full automatic fire was the biggest problem and the heavy extra magazine bags were a pain. IMHO, the MACs were among the worst...FAR too high a rate of fire, difficult to hold, and basically uncontrollable after the first shot...the most effective MACs were the .380's due to the lighter recoil. A lot of the gun models had too high a rate of fire...best results were from tapping three round bursts, and it's surprising how many guns fire too fast to permit that. The newer guns with vertical forgard grip allow better control. And, we liked the English Stens and Lancasters...their horizontal mags were great for firing prone.

The French MAT 49's were popular...their magazine well is hinged so you can fold the magazine along the action, they have a collabsible wire stock, and they fire from an open bolt. So, they are great for carrying in a briefcase...yank out the gun, swivel the magazine in place, and pull the trigger! That was my "Outing-Go to the city!" gun in Vietnam.

In general, though we favored them at first, the sub guns turned out not to be popular after we got familiar with them. The main time we carried them was in vehicle cabs. The preferred weapon for street/house-to-house fighting was the 12-ga shotgun with #1 buck...Not 00! 16 .30 cal pellets gives a far denser pattern than 9 each 00's. From across a street, you can take out an entire door and frame with one shot of #1 buck, while you can miss or cause minor damage to someone standing in that doorway with 00. Rifle bullets go through too many walls and hit things you really don't want to hit.

And, one shot of #1 buck is equivalent to most of a mag from a subgun, and instantaneous.

 

[oh blanky]

I've got a FA uzi and don't play with it much and have been thinking about selling it.

3 weeks ago Hurricane Wilma hit us, and during the first 3 days after, when there were no cops, no power, and roaming carfuls of a-holes looking for things to loot, rape, and pillage, I was quite happy to have my little freng.

For those of you who dismiss 9mm as a pistol round, remember that the idea of a subgun is to get a nice 3 round burst COM.

I've got Austrian Hirtenberg 124 grain that tops 1450fps, and a three or four round burst will cause enough fast trauma to make all but the heartiest goblin sit down hard.

 

[benEzra]

presuming 00 buck, nine simultanious 9mm balls - that exceeds the 30-round magazines of its competitors in just 4 shells

I think that would be 000 buck. 00 buckshot is around .32/.33 caliber, whereas 000 buck is around .360 (9mm is .355). #1 buck is .30 caliber, and #2 is around .270.

At least according to the table on this site: http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/shotguns/shotgun_ammunition.html

 

[Kurush]

The fact that the bullet stays in the body means that the bullet tranfers all it's energy to the body and thus giving a bigger shock. If 5.56, say, has half of it's energy after going through the body (let's keep it strictly to military rounds, as military cannot use hollowpoints and otherwise doctored rounds) then the difference in passed-over energy is definitely smaller between it and 5.7.

First off, "energy dump", the idea that you can determine wounding by calculating KE, is an urban legend. As with many legends, there is a kernel of truth to it. When a bullet collides with a target, it slows down and transfers internal energy to the target. Energy performs work, but the question is what work is done? If you punch someone in the chest, the energy causes mostly harmless stretching, heating, and harmless breaking of bonds inside of the ribs. If you punch someone with the same energy and momentum while holding a knife, the energy goes into cutting. Same energy, big difference.

Ok, experts, how much velocity the 5.56 FMJ loses going trough human body?

You're aware that commonly used 5.56 bullets fragment, right? I think you need to read this: http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm

My point? while the 5.7 is not a rifle round it isn't very marginal to it, as the energies (2 to 3 times smaller) are in the same magnitude, so more hits are needed, it's still superior to pistol rounds.

Nope. 5.7x28 steel core penetrates IIIa vests, and does not penetrate level III rifle plates. 9x19 steel core also penetrates IIIa vests, and also does not penetrate level III rifle plates*. Guess which one makes a bigger hole? There is no comparison between 5.7 and 5.56 at all, 5.56 is vastly superior.

*Actually, Russian 9mm PBP +P+ supposedly will penetrate level III rifle plates, but it's designed for a special gun.

 

[CAS700850]

What do police depts. do with guns like that when they no longer need them?

Civilian auction??

In this part of the world, sometimes they trade them in for new guns. Vance's/Buckeye Outdoors often features police trade-ins. However, in speaking about these MP-5SD's, they plan on simply using them until they fall apart, and replacing them with 5.56 carbines.

 

[rudolf]

rudolf said;
"For home defense, the shotgun is best. You can aim over the barrel without needing to see sights, which makes hitting in low light much easier."

Been watching El Dorado on DVD again? You have to aim shotguns unless the hit you need to make is written into the script. Any idea of how big a pattern is at room distance? Not much bigger then the bore. A shotgun is not a point and click interface.
Jeff

Did I call you stupid? Or belittle you? Would you like me to talk to you in that way? As a moderator, i assume you often tell someone how to treat others. How about a chat with yourself.
Now back to our discussion. Please reread my sentence and you will find the word "aim". I am talking about aimed fire.
I shoot a single shot without any sights, just 'over the barrel', at a normal UIT pistol target quite often with slugs and stay in the black at 25 yards. Using another shotgun with a bead doesn't make much difference. Aiming a Pistol gives about the same accuracy. A rifle is better.
For me, the shotgun ist the fastest way to get an aim that's good enough for close distance. When I shoot in the semi dark (target has light, I don't) being able to aim over the barrel silhouette is definitely the fastest way to reliably hit.

So are you telling me that you're going to shoot at a shadowy figure in the dark? Without a light, how will you ID the target as a threat? It would be a heck of a thing to live with shooting a family member who had come home unexpectedly.
Jeff

You really assume everybody else is stupid? Yes I will shoot a shadowy figure in the dark! After I have identified the person, I will NOT leave any lights on, and I will NOT stand upright in Schwarzenegger fashion trying to terminate. I will move to some kind of cover, concealment, or just into some shadow. It's my home, I know it. Then I'll shoot the shadowy figure. In that case, being able to aim without having to find my sights in the dark is very good.

What's your personal experience with this? You've never used a 10" barrel with the Noveski flashider before if you believe that. Try shooting your 12 gauge indoors and see what kind of flash bang effect you get.
Jeff

My experience is Mini 14 with no hider. I can't compare the Mini's flash with a hider to shotgun blast. Maybe you could tell me how they compare.
I could compare the blast of the Mini 14 and a 18" shotgun at an indoor range with concrete walls (some indoors have sound reduction walls). I preferred the shotgun by far.
The shotguns flash in a dark single person concrete tunnel is mild enough for me not to bother. Not good with 3" federal slugs, but fine with low recoil 2 3/4 slugs.

I asked, thanks, it was an acronym I hadn't seen before.
Jeff

The KSK mostly uses the short G36, and to a lesser degree the MP5 for house clearing (I talked to a KSK). This reflects what most special forces and SWAT folks do, and what you said.
http://www.sondereinheiten.de/ksk/picview.php?dir=pics&pic=ksk004.jpg
http://www.sondereinheiten.de/ksk/gallerie.php

But I'm no SWAT, and I will only do home defence, if ever. For that, I'll have a shotgun.

 

[Jeff White]

rudolf,
I'm sorry if my post offended you, it wasn't meant to. Perhaps you could have expressed yourself a little more clearly. It's a very widely believed myth that shotguns are point and and shoot, and it's a myth that we have long argumentative threads about. And there are still many people who believe that it's true.

You really assume everybody else is stupid? Yes I will shoot a shadowy figure in the dark! After I have identified the person, I will NOT leave any lights on, and I will NOT stand upright in Schwarzenegger fashion trying to terminate.

Again, you could have expressed yourself more clearly. Lights are another hot button issue with people. You'll find plenty of internet commando chest thumping in a lot of threads around here. You never mentioned ID'ng your target in your original post, you just said you had no need for a light.

My experience is Mini 14 with no hider. I can't compare the Mini's flash with a hider to shotgun blast. Maybe you could tell me how they compare.

It's been several years since I fired a Mini-14. The one I owned had an aftermarket Choate Machine and Tool birdcage type flash hider. It worked about as well as the flash hider on an M16 or AR15. Much less blast then a 12 gauge shotgun.

I could compare the blast of the Mini 14 and a 18" shotgun at an indoor range with concrete walls (some indoors have sound reduction walls). I preferred the shotgun by far.

I agree with you that the shotgun would have less muzzle blast then a stock Mini-14 without a flash hider.

Have you ever placed a piece of white adhesive tape on the front sight of your shotgun? Back in the days before night vision equipment was widely fielded we used to put a strip of white tape on the front sight base of our M16A1s. Made a fairly acceptable field expediant close range night sight. We used the wings that protected the rear sight as the rear sight.

Again, my post wasn't meant to offend and I apologize if you were.

Jeff

 

[rudolf]

rudolf,
I'm sorry if my post offended you, it wasn't meant to. Perhaps you could have expressed yourself a little more clearly.
Jeff

No problem. I didn't get into too much basics as we were into a specific discussion anyway.

You never mentioned ID'ng your target in your original post, you just said you had no need for a light.
Jeff

I don't need a light on a gun. ID'ng goes many ways. If the shadow is too small, it's probably a kid. If you tell it to freeze and it yells at you, it's probably your wife. I might just turn on the room light for a moment. Ask who's there. Or use the 'normal' flashlight. But I'm not SWAT. They need a light on their gun for sure.

Have you ever placed a piece of white adhesive tape on the front sight of your shotgun? Back in the days before night vision equipment was widely fielded we used to put a strip of white tape on the front sight base of our M16A1s. Made a fairly acceptable field expediant close range night sight. We used the wings that protected the rear sight as the rear sight.
Jeff

As it is night over here, i grabbed a shotgun and tried it out right now in my corridor, with just a bit of ambient light. As long as I can make out a silhouette of a target, I also see the silhouette of the barrel. I cannot make out any difference between the white (tape) part and the rest of the barell though, it all looks black in the semi dark.

Again, the barrel silhoutte aiming will work for me up to almost total darkness, BUT only at shorter ranges and only if I can see the barrel freely like on a shotgun. This is quite specific to home defence, which is mostly about low light and short distance. And I need no special equipement, just a plain simple shotgun. I prefer it that way, KISS.

 

[entropy]

How did I let this one get to 3 pages without posting.

While I don't have a huge amount of SMG trigger time, I have fired an M1A1 Thompson (not very well, but give me a break; I was 11 years old!) A MAC 10 in .45ACP, and an MP5SD3, courtesy of a Force Recon team training on the MOUT at Ft. ORD. I did get to fire an XM177E2 (Shortly before their unofficial retirement when the M4 was being developed) and while I developed an immense liking for the MP5, and some skill with it, I'd still prefer an M4, and with the Noveske setup Jeff describes, it sounds like a huge improvement over the MP5. And considering what I was capable of with just a little (one day) of practice with the MP5SD3, (3 round bursts in the head of silhouette at 75 m. ), and my familiarity with the M16's action (ergonomics, which are way better than the MP5's) , I would feel very well armed with a shorty M4.

 

[Fletchette]

Question for the sub-gunners

Why are the vast majority of subguns designed with a perpendicular magazine? UZI and MACs are typical of this. I think the 90 degree grip hurts ergonomics and pointability. Clearly one can design a reliable angled magazine. Am I missing something?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Why are the vast majority of subguns designed with a perpendicular magazine? UZI and MACs are typical of this. I think the 90 degree grip hurts ergonomics and pointability. Clearly one can design a reliable angled magazine. Am I missing something?

Angled how? The Sten has a magazine that protrudes to the left -- and it was often remarked how inconvenient that was.

 

[Preacherman]

Fletchette, most pistol ammo used in subguns (e.g. 9mm., .45 ACP, etc.) is straight-walled, or nearly so. This means that magazines for that round have to be straight, to ensure reliable feeding. Bottle-nose rounds such as 7.62x39, 5.56x45, etc. naturally "curve" when stacked against spring tension, which is why their magazines curve in accordance with bullet geometry and capacity. And, since the subgun magazines were straight anyway, one couldn't really have them offset at anything other than a 90º angle to the gun, otherwise the rounds wouldn't feed properly without some intricate mechanical re-alignment during the feeding cycle to line them up with the breech.

 

[John Ross]

I don't have any military experience but I have a LOT of FA experience and I used to be Missouri's largest Class III dealer. I shoot about 30,000 rounds out of MGs a year, maybe 20 types of guns and lots of them pistol calibers. I'm pretty good with a SMG, not as good as I was before my stroke, but nothing to be ashamed of.

I also teach beginning to advanced SD shooting classes.

My take:

Much of what has been said I agree with, i.e. if you're going to carry something the size of a short rifle, have it be in a rifle caliber, and that the SMG is a niche weapon. Some (like Oleg) have touted the SMG as a good house gun, if available.

Here's what no one has said: A gun for defense is only useful if it is within arm's reach without moving your feet. Period. If "house gun" means a gun within arm's reach while you are in bed, okay. But nothing but a handgun will ALWAYS be within arm's reach before you go to bed.

For this reason, if I've got clothes on, I've got a handgun on me. The SMG can't be with you all the time...

...unless it's a machine pistol.

The purpose of the modern machine pistol, I believe, is to get the close-range effectiveness of the shotgun firing buckshot in a pistol-sized package.

I think many tests and street experiences have documented that shooting something once produces trauma (if that's the right word) to the nervous system, and that additional wounds seconds later only destroy additional tissue. That's why you read of BGs absorbing lots of lead and yet they keep fighting. This seldom happens with 12 gauge buckshot. A machine pistol fires quickly enough that it's like hitting your attacker with buckshot.

The average street defense shooting occurs at 5 to 7 feet, depending on county doing the reporting. Very few are over 20 feet.

I can draw and dump the entire 17 rounds from my Glock 18 into the chest of a stationary silhouette target at 21 feet in 2 seconds. Many of my students can, too, with practice.

Having said all that, I don't carry a machine pistol for defense, for the reason that a street shooting will likely be a more frenzied affair than any range practice session, and spraying bullets full auto may not be a good idea, if only for image reasons.

So I go for the closest thing to a 12 gauge as possible without resorting to full auto: A big revolver. With a littler one for backup.

JR

 

[entropy]

Why are the vast majority of subguns designed with a perpendicular magazine? UZI and MACs are typical of this. I think the 90 degree grip hurts ergonomics and pointability. Clearly one can design a reliable angled magazine. Am I missing something?

There's always the Austen and Owen subguns from Down Under....Their magazines feed from the top of the reciever.

Seriously; There are two good reasons besides the fact that most pistol-caliber rounds feed better from a vertical magazine:


-Economics. It is much cheaper to produce them that way.

-Ergonomics. Small curved magazines are harder to insert, particularly when not inserted into the grip. The MP5 and PPSh have straight sections at the top where they are inserted. The 'hand meets hand' ergonomic first used in Vaclav Holek's Cz/Vz subguns is so advantageous that Uziel Gal, Gordon Ingram, and many others adopted it for their designs.

Reliability is also a factor. extended mags for pistols (Hi-Power, Beretta 92, S&W 59 series, 1911) are prone to causing malfuntions, unless well designed, often redesigned for more rounds.

 

[Oleg Volk]

John Ross is right, which is why I'd still _carry_ a G17 or an M1911 even if SMGs were available. My take on SMGs is that they allow close-in defense from positions impossible with heavier-recoiling long guns and they they suppress well. I would prefer body armor penetration of a .30 rifle, but those tend to be louder and less handy in confined spaces. My liking for M3A1 is entirely based on limited experience with SMGs (Macs, Uzi, MP5, M3A1,MP40, SW76,Thompson) and being able to do better with it than with other types. YMMV. For someone like my mother, a short, light SMG like MAS1935 in French .30 Long or its functional equivalent would be ideal: it spreads recoil over time and still allows multiple hits. Even M1 carbinie is too heavy for her.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

angled SMG magazines

The Aberdeen proving ground tests showed that when
submachinegun magazines were dropped in mud,
the Thompson and Reising would not shoot, but
the Sten would shoot, once the first few fouled
rounds were ejected: apparently the mud flowed down
into the vertical magazines of the Thompson and Reising,
but was ejected from the horizontally mounted Sten.
Australian Owens with vertical top-down feed had great
reputations for reliability; I believe the Austen (Australian
Sten) fed from the side like the original Sten.

Dust would jam the double column single feed Sten
and Reising magazines worse than mud.

Why aren't all SMGs double column double feed?

 

[Jeff White]

John Ross said;

I think many tests and street experiences have documented that shooting something once produces trauma (if that's the right word) to the nervous system, and that additional wounds seconds later only destroy additional tissue. That's why you read of BGs absorbing lots of lead and yet they keep fighting. This seldom happens with 12 gauge buckshot. A machine pistol fires quickly enough that it's like hitting your attacker with buckshot.

The only way to get enough of a nervous system shutdown to reliably rapidly incapacitate anyone at any time is to hit either the brain stem or the neural motor strips (picture a person wearing headphones, the part of the head that the headphones would cover is the neural motor strip). Not everyone reacts to pain or nervous shock the same way. I'd hate to depend on a three round burst of 9mm or .45, or a single round of 00 buckshot to instantly shut my opponent down. There are no magic bullets. That goes for rifle rounds too. you have to be ready to make the followup shot, you don't want to to lose the fight to the man you just killed, because you didn't kill him quickly enough. That's why I prefer rifle calibers if I'm going into harms way. There are pleny of people who have taken multiple hits from just about anything hand held you can name and still continued to function long enough to hurt or kill.

I would recommend that everyone carry the most potent firearm/cartridge combination that fits into their particular defensive situation, and be prepared to continue to use it until your opponent is down. Fighting is all about the software, the hardware is secondary.

Having said all that, I don't carry a machine pistol for defense, for the reason that a street shooting will likely be a more frenzied affair than any range practice session, and spraying bullets full auto may not be a good idea, if only for image reasons.

So I go for the closest thing to a 12 gauge as possible without resorting to full auto: A big revolver. With a littler one for backup.

A perfect example of my recommendation. Pick the defensive weapon that you are able to handle the best, (revolver, auto, it doesn't matter) in the caliber .38 special or above that you shoot the best, and spend the rest of your money on ammunition to practice with and professional training. That's my theory anyway.

Medusa said;

Sorry Jeff, I do not try to prove you wrong to put the 5.7 in superior stance over 5.56. my point was that the 5.7 performs well in it's niche - personal defence. whole reason was to give heavy enough firepower to non-frontline troops (like tankers, MPs, drivers, security detail in any vessel) to defend themselves until cavalry arrives. as noted - just a tool for specific job. And why is the fact, that the 5.7 round doesn't penetrate human body, considered to be a serious mishap? If you have to shoot someone why waste energy due the bullet that goes through the BG and still goes on? The fact that the bullet stays in the body means that the bullet tranfers all it's energy to the body and thus giving a bigger shock.

I think the M4 and it's shorter variants gives the support troops a more satisfactory PDW option then the P90 and other weapons of that type. A bit more weight and cube, but you shoot an effective round.

The 5.7x28 doesn't penetrate deep enough to reliably reach the blood rich internal organs from any angle. The bullets don't expand or shatter and fragment which leave you a very small permanent wound track that won't reliably disrupt enough tissue to ensure the person you just shot rapidly loses enough blood pressure to lose consciousness. You can't count on 5.7x28 to make it through a bicep and into the chest cavity of your assailant if you had to shoot from any angle. Combat is dynamic and you will seldom get a nice frontal shot like the silhouette targets at the range.

Energy transfer has nothing to do with incapacitation. If the round you fired hit hard enough to take a man off his feet without some kind of psychological reaction from the person you shot (some people have dropped dead from shock after receiving wounds that may not have been mortal, it's believed from their preconcieved notion that a gunshot wound is fatal) it would also take you off your feet from the recoil.

In my opinion, the PDW is a solution looking for a problem. Technology has yet to give us a round that we can stuff into a package that small that is as effective as a 5.56x45, 5.45x39 in a slightly bigger package.

Jeff

 

[Burt Blade]

I am a bit on the old fashioned side. My preferred "light" long gun is a lever action rifle in a heavy pistol caliber. (.45 Colt or better)

Granted, if I can grab the Garand, I am going for the Garand.

Those 20" Winchester 92 and 94 lever guns are light, fast handling, and pack more than enough whollop in their ten-round magazines. The short 16" ones are even handier, and still hold 8 in the magazine.

Full reloads are rather slow, but the ability to top them off helps. You can also single-load them rather quickly.

If you are reacting to a burst-open door at 1:00am, the Winchester makes a great gun for breaking the assault. In stupid-law states and towns, they make a dandy substitute for the mag-fed black-plastic carbines. (And they are good pistol substitutes in _really_ stupid-law locations.)