There are obvious differences between hunting and paper punching..... As I eluded to in a prior post; finding ammo for a 7.62X39 for hunting is a challenge at best...... However.... 90%+ of all mom n' pop, big box or even some grocery stores will have sufficient supplies of 30-30 ammo 24/7. And once again I'll state that I'm not thrashing the 7.62, I even think it's a cool bolt action thing well worthy of consideration..... but dont confuse utility with throwing lead.
Why no 30-30 bolt actions?
- Thread starter superpelly
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R.W.Dale
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I honestly cannot think of ANYWHERE that carries 30-30 ammo or any ammo for that matter that does not also carry 7.62x39 hunting ammo.
MCgunner
Member
Yeah, well, that's what I said in a round about 6 paragraph kinda way.
Well, I handload and I've chronographed my .30-30 150 grainers at over 2400 fps. I can't get more'n 2200 out of a 135 grain pro hunter Sierra (discontinued bullet) safely. Sure, factory is neutered, but I don't shoot factory. I can't find those 154 grain Wolfs around here, but I can get 170 grain Nosler partition in .30-30 Federal Premium.
I'm much more confident in the .30-30, but I've yet to try my SKS on a hog. I just got it set up for such, but haven't been out with it, yet. I don't have much confidence in the bullet weight, but I limit the size of hogs I shoot. It should be fine on a smaller 150 lb or so hog.
My definition of adequate 30 caliber sectional densities starts about 150 grains in .30 caliber. Those little 123 grain 7.62 factory loads are real cute. Probably be a good load for gophers. I handload the Sierra 135 pro hunter, but my supply is short and they're no longer available. I'll have to try another bullet in the future. The case isn't really optimal for bullets as heavy as 150 grains.
chris in va
Member
Gophers. You guys do realize the 7.62 cartridge was developed to kill humans at closer ranges...
They're certainly larger than hogs or gophers.
They're certainly larger than hogs or gophers.
jerkface11
Member
Pretty much every time I've gone into a gunshop looking for 154gr 7.62x39 softpoints I've found them. Maybe you guys never noticed them and just decided they weren't there.
MCgunner
Member
Well, the only reason I have a 7.62x39 is the cheap, fun SKS I bought. I'd certainly NOT chose that caliber over my .308 for deer hunting and have no plans to rebarrel my M7 for that round. If you enjoy hunting deer with minimal calibers, fine, but my gun cost no more in .308 and I don't see any advantage in LESS power or range. Same would go for a choice in a bolt .30-30 or a .308. Now, I prefer my light, short, handy rifle in the short action .308 caliber to a heavier long action gun in .30-06. That's the point of the .308 as I see it. There are short action short magnum rounds now days, but my .308 works just fine for what I do. I have a big, heavy 7 mag if I wanna kill something big. I don't see buying a new gun every time a new short magnum comes on the market. The .308 is available everywhere the .30-30 is and in more variety of loads, even mil surp. The only advantage I can think of for the 7.62 shooter is cheaper mil surp. I handload my .308 anyway, but it's a very popular round on the gun store ammo shelves. And, no, I've yet to find the 154 grain 7.62 stuff, will likely have to order some soon. I really think it'd work better on hog size critters than those wimpy little 123 grainers. It's called sectional density...look it up. the higher the number, the better the penetration on heavyish game like big hogs. A big hogs gristle plate is a little harder to penetrate than an enemy's skin. Heck, when I'm specifically after hogs with my .308, I shoot Barnes X bullets. Are there any controlled expansion bullets available in 7.62x39? I think not.
The .30-30 is a great choice in lever guns (the original question was "why no bolts"), but the .308 and other rounds like .30-06 or even short magnum rounds far out class the old thuddy thuddy out of a bolt gun of similar size. The lever guns are handy, light, quick, and all you need for woods hunting and that's the niche. I have done a lot of west Texas and New Mexico open country hunting in the past and out there, the bolt gun with longer range calibers pretty much rules. You don't see many 94 Winchesters out there, though they do exist. You just gotta get closer with the .30-30. Those cross canyon shots are out of the question. I've never even been to Pennsylvania. I guess it just matters WHERE you hunt, but if I hunted Pennsylvania I'd still want my .30-30 in a lever gun, personally. Why put it in a bolt gun? It was designed in a lever and that's really where it shines.
Read the question. The arguement is about "why there are not .30-30 bolt guns available". It wasn't "why is the 7.62x39 marginal for big hogs" or "would your rather hunt with an SKS or a 94", nope. It's why isn't there a .30-30 bolt gun and the reason why is there are better calibers and the .30-30 was MADE for handy, light, excellent little lever guns and that's why it's a popular caliber in the first place. In woods hunting, especially still hunting in woods, the lever gun would be my first choice and probably in .30-30 Winchester. But, I mostly feeder watch with my bolt guns out of a stand here in Texas anymore with an occasional trip to the west where I spot and stalk the canyon ridges (I just love to hunt the west).
JMHO, of course.
If you enjoy hunting deer with minimal calibers, fine, but my gun cost no more in .308 and I don't see any advantage in LESS power or range. Same would go for a choice in a bolt .30-30 or a .308. Now, I prefer my light, short, handy rifle in the short action .308 caliber to a heavier long action gun in .30-06. That's the point of the .308 as I see it. There are short action short magnum rounds now days, but my .308 works just fine for what I do. I have a big, heavy 7 mag if I wanna kill something big. I don't see buying a new gun every time a new short magnum comes on the market. The .308 is available everywhere the .30-30 is and in more variety of loads, even mil surp. The only advantage I can think of for the 7.62 shooter is cheaper mil surp. I handload my .308 anyway, but it's a very popular round on the gun store ammo shelves. And, no, I've yet to find the 154 grain 7.62 stuff, will likely have to order some soon. I really think it'd work better on hog size critters than those wimpy little 123 grainers. It's called sectional density...look it up. the higher the number, the better the penetration on heavyish game like big hogs. A big hogs gristle plate is a little harder to penetrate than an enemy's skin. Heck, when I'm specifically after hogs with my .308, I shoot Barnes X bullets. Are there any controlled expansion bullets available in 7.62x39? I think not.The .30-30 is a great choice in lever guns (the original question was "why no bolts"), but the .308 and other rounds like .30-06 or even short magnum rounds far out class the old thuddy thuddy out of a bolt gun of similar size. The lever guns are handy, light, quick, and all you need for woods hunting and that's the niche. I have done a lot of west Texas and New Mexico open country hunting in the past and out there, the bolt gun with longer range calibers pretty much rules. You don't see many 94 Winchesters out there, though they do exist. You just gotta get closer with the .30-30. Those cross canyon shots are out of the question. I've never even been to Pennsylvania. I guess it just matters WHERE you hunt, but if I hunted Pennsylvania I'd still want my .30-30 in a lever gun, personally. Why put it in a bolt gun? It was designed in a lever and that's really where it shines.
Read the question. The arguement is about "why there are not .30-30 bolt guns available". It wasn't "why is the 7.62x39 marginal for big hogs" or "would your rather hunt with an SKS or a 94", nope. It's why isn't there a .30-30 bolt gun and the reason why is there are better calibers and the .30-30 was MADE for handy, light, excellent little lever guns and that's why it's a popular caliber in the first place. In woods hunting, especially still hunting in woods, the lever gun would be my first choice and probably in .30-30 Winchester. But, I mostly feeder watch with my bolt guns out of a stand here in Texas anymore with an occasional trip to the west where I spot and stalk the canyon ridges (I just love to hunt the west).
JMHO, of course.
But that is just the point. Its a gun for people who want the accuracy of a bolt gun but not in a cartridge that will fly in their nieghbors dinning rooms while there eating. Thats why its great for hunting in "slug gun" territory. I'd take a 30-30 over a slug gun anyday.
cracked butt
Member
Hmmm
MCgunner
Member
I'm not going to bother addressing what comes after that "but", however I've fired many 94s and Marlin 336s that were capable of 2 MOA or better. That's plenty of accuracy for the limited range of the caliber. I still don't see why one needs it in a bolt gun. If you ever do get a 300 yard shot with one using Leverlution or what ever it's called ammunition, 2 MOA is plenty accurate on a deer's vitals. Where you'll be hunting with this gun, the likelihood of a 200 yard shot is minimal, anyway. The advantages of the quick, handy little lever gun outweighs sub MOA possibilities IMHO. I got nothing against the caliber in a bolt gun, used to own one and know its ballistics and accuracy potential. But, there is little market for such a gun and I think sales figures in the past for such guns probably prove it. Lever guns in .30-30 still sell by the case load.
Essex County
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This thread has generated a lot of discussion.....
The demand probably isn't there, however there have been action/calibers odder than this one that were viable than this one. I think most folks would agree that the Savage 340 sold like hotcakes in it's hayday. Why did my Dad purchase me one in '58? Economics. Brand new deer rifle for 54.00. I think a Winchester or Marlin was 70.00 plus at the time. Seems pretty insignifent by today's standards. I say to those poor folks that still own them.... Keep on shooting them! Essex
The demand probably isn't there, however there have been action/calibers odder than this one that were viable than this one. I think most folks would agree that the Savage 340 sold like hotcakes in it's hayday. Why did my Dad purchase me one in '58? Economics. Brand new deer rifle for 54.00. I think a Winchester or Marlin was 70.00 plus at the time. Seems pretty insignifent by today's standards. I say to those poor folks that still own them.... Keep on shooting them! Essex
R.W.Dale
Member
There certainly are! Any .308 bullet of the appropriate weight can be used in 7.62x39 and yield great accuracy to boot.
MCgunner
Member
Over the 135 grain spitzer I was loading and you either intrude into the case capacity of the 7.62 or you're too long in OAL for the action. I've thought a 150 grain flat nose .30-30 bullet might be an answer. I may play with that idea, or a round nose. That Pro Hunter Sierra was a pretty decent bullet, designed for shooting out of .30-30 or .30 Herrit Contenders, designed to expand at Contender/SKS velocities. It worked okay and I had more faith in it on deer than any 123 grain stuff. The 140 Barnes X I load in .30-30 and .308 would be way long for a 7.62x39 case, though. It's a solid copper bullet, is as long as a 160 grain bullet and is a spitzer boat tail to boot. I don't think it could be loaded efficiently in the tiny 7.62x39 case. I haven't tried it, though, but it just doesn't seem possible. A good 150 round nose is about the best I could hope for, I think, and I may pick up a box of Sierras soon and work a load up. I have some empty IMI brass to play with.
I've not yet found what I'd call "great accuracy" out of an SKS. It's not the caliber, though, but the rifle. It's just not an accurate design. I've heard worse for Ruger mini thirties, frankly. You'd need a good bolt gun to make the 7.62 REALLY accurate, but if you're going to go with a bolt, why not just a .308? Same delima as the .30-30, eh? Yeah, except that there's really nothing wrong with the accuracy of a Marlin 336. My SKSs both do well to group 3 MOA. That's adequate for deer and hog to 100 yards. They run out of poop at 200 and are in the 6" group range. With leverlution ammo, a .30-30 is approaching a 300 yard gun and has the accuracy to back it up. So, considering the lack of accuracy of that SKS, I generally figure it's best use is a night hunting gun where I won't be able to see much beyond 100 yards anyway. Besides, it's a heavy pig compared to my M7 Remington. It's longer and MUCH heavier and slower to the shoulder. Not a real practical hunting rifle. Most mil surp stuff isn't really ideal for hunting, heavy and bulky for a hunting rifle. You can strip the barrel off it and rebarrel and re-stock say a 98 Mauser, but then you no longer really have a 98 Mauser other than the excellent action.
.308 and .30-30 are available in factory Federal Premium loads with controlled expansion bullets. You don't have to be a handloader to enjoy premium hunting loads in these calibers.
R.W.Dale
Member
All my loads have been for a CZ527, I've been able to load cartridges a good deal longer than you can for an SKS. I've had good results with the Hornady 170grn FP bullet but far and away my favorite is the 125grn Nosler B-Tip. But honestly at the mild velocities 30-30 and x39 produce I see no need for anything beyond tried and true cup and core bullets. In fact you might be doing yourself a disservice by using bullets intended for higher velocities
MCgunner
Member
Well, now, there in lies the difference.
My idea to try as a hunting bullet is the 150 Hornady round nose .30-30 bullet. Interlock bullets, in my experience in other calibers, are good penetrating bullets and the round nose in a 7.62x39 should be plenty good to 100 yards. I hope the scope's elevation isn't TOO far off from mil surp. I like to shoot this thing at the range, but my 135 pro hunter loads shot WAY low compared to mil surp. But, I'll zero for it if I work up a good hunting load because that's what I do, hunt. It's a fun plinker at the range, but I think it has merit as a night gun for hogs. I'll be working the light mounted to the scope, the trigger, perhaps even a handheld spotlight. I don't need to be working a bolt, LOL! Actually, I need to get my butt down there and do some huntin' instead of typing about it on the net... Oh, btw, something I absolutely LOVE about Barnes bullets is the fact that they will expand well down to below 1800 fps, yet retain 100 percent of their weight or near so for penetration. These things are simply amazing, mile way expansion window far as velocity goes. I have shot one deer with one out of my .30-30 Contender and expansion must have been total considering the size of the exit wound. I normally shoot Nosler ballistic tip 150s in that gun and my .308, though, but the Barnes do offer better performance on heavier game. When I hog hunt with my .308, that's my round of choice. I've taken a half dozen hogs with full penetration, though none went much over 150-200 lbs. But, I have total confidence in the load even on a big bruiser.
Shooter973
Member
No Bolt 30-30's???
I have 2 Rem 788's in 30-30. And have shot a lot of cast bullets out of them. And have had quite a few people ask me about them and even offered to buy them from me. Seems like there just might be more of a demand for them than you folks seem to think. I'm keeping BOTH of mine.
I have 2 Rem 788's in 30-30. And have shot a lot of cast bullets out of them. And have had quite a few people ask me about them and even offered to buy them from me. Seems like there just might be more of a demand for them than you folks seem to think. I'm keeping BOTH of mine.
mustanger98
Member
Shooter973, I agree with you. I'm not selling my Savage 340 either.
superpelly
Member
Thanks for all the replies I have learned a lot about my Steven's model 325, Did not know that it had a brother and sister ( Savage Model 340 and the savage Model 840) . I do have a Bolt action .308 and I have not hunted with my Stevens 30-30 for nearly 27 years. I have been keeping the gun for my kids to hunt with some day. I do shoot it out my back yard every once in a while to make it happy
I have learned a lot about my Steven's model 325, Did not know that it had a brother and sister ( Savage Model 340 and the savage Model 840) . I do have a Bolt action .308 and I have not hunted with my Stevens 30-30 for nearly 27 years. I have been keeping the gun for my kids to hunt with some day. I do shoot it out my back yard every once in a while to make it happysuperpelly
Member
Strange how things work. Went to a gun show Yesterday and saw a Steve's mode 325. The price was $300.00 Not the best shape. The guy selling it said that they are hard to find.
Not the best shape. The guy selling it said that they are hard to find.Oddly enough, I just finished refinishing my father's Stevens 325 that he purchased new in 1947 for $33. The Birch furniture is a beautiful, striped pattern and shines like a $5 Gold piece in the sun. I mopped 61 years worth of copper fouling out of the barrel and shot the X-ring out of the target at 100 yards with the 4X Springfield scope riding in the side mount. While I was downrange changing targets, a crowd gathered around to gawk at the 'pretty rifle'. Not a single one of them had ever seen one. I guess any of those would be reason enough to own one.
Oh, and factory ammo is $8/20 instead of $3 each like a lot of the current 'deer guns'.
rr2241tx
Oh, and factory ammo is $8/20 instead of $3 each like a lot of the current 'deer guns'.
rr2241tx
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