Would you shoot ?

[CWL]

Painted dogs are roughly the size of German Shepherds, trying to man-handle & kick 7-10 of these dogs would only result in you getting added to their dinner list.

In Africa, these dogs actively compete with Lions and Hyenas for food. They use coordinated pack attacks and they don't back down.

I doubt that handgun caliber firearms would have been able to stop these animals in time, but thinking to be able to physically separate these dogs from their prey is really ignorant.

 

[Skribs]

Is it even legal to be carrying at the zoo? Most I have seen are of the "gun-free safety zone" types. If so, now pulling your gun, even if nothing else, might lead to more complications

I hope so, considering last time I went to the zoo...
(It wasn't posted, and even if it was, there's the whole "not illegal, but potentially trespassing" issue).

I also have to ask, all these people who would "run in"...how much experience do you have with wild predators, especially those who are currently eating?

 

[Fotno]

Having seen what a pack of feral dogs can do to a smaller animal, and how quickly it all happens I can only imagine what truly wild canines could do. There's no way I'd take a shot into a pack of dogs mauling a child. Jump in and start grabbing every dog I could? If I could reach them I'd sure try.

 

[Skribs]

So, Fotno, your reasoning is that these things can quickly rip something to shreds, so you'd rather get into the melee than use a ranged weapon?

 

[Apachedriver]

In A, the child dies horribly and in B, maybe you save him or maybe you kill him quickly if you miss. After which you'll be charged with voluntary manslaughter and possibly be sued in to bankruptcy by the child's parents.

Fixed that for you.

NEVER shoot unless you're sure of your target and what's beyond it. Every time you loose a bullet you're 100% responsible for what it does.

Actually you didn't.

What you did was add more realities of the situation.

I wasn't trying to sound full of bravado or anything like that.

I was stating from an emotional perspective what I would want to do. What would I actually do?

Right here and now? I don't know.

 

[Cosmoline]

In Africa, these dogs actively compete with Lions and Hyenas for food. They use coordinated pack attacks and they don't back down.

Well that's in Africa. These were zoo bred stock, and all but one did back down after people arrived to distract them. You roll your dice doing it, but personally if I'd been there I would have had to go in. I'm no stranger to getting bit or dealing with dog fights, and I'd last a little longer than the kid. One trick is picking up a dog by the tail and flailing it into the other dogs. Get them confused and fighting each other. You definitely don't ever put your hand or feet in the mix, but work from the back ends. With animals like these, used to zoo employees being around, it might be possible.

But handguns would be of limited use in that chaos. A large stick would be better.

 

[Warp]

Yesterday in Pgh at the zoo a 2 y/o child was mauled to death by a pack of african painted dogs when he fell into the exibit after his mother stood him up on the top of the fence.

Now, without goin into a tangent about how the parents should suffer the same fate.

If you were to witness something like this and were carrying, would you immediately attempt to shoot these animals in an attempt to save the childs life or would you take the time to think of possible legal ramifications ?

As the story goes. While zoo attendents attempted to distract the dogs away from the child, when local Police arrived they immediately began shooting the one remaining dog.

For the record, to me, a child's life is worth far more than any concern of myself, and I personaly don't think i would hesitate at all and would immediately begain shooting.

If I thought I might be able to save the child additional injury, or save its life, I might shoot the dogs.

If I was concerned with possibly hitting the child, I would not be willing to take that risk.

If I could enter the enclosure quickly, I might even do that.

All answers would be different if it were my child, or a family member's child.

 

[Miked7762]

Not like a high chain-link fence or a net would be that expensive compared to the landscaping, construction, and climate control for these enclosures.

There is a net below the viewing area. It will catch anyone who is large enough to climb over the fence on their own. However, the child was small and light enough to bounce right off the net and into the exhibit.

 

[Rail Driver]

Painted dogs are roughly the size of German Shepherds, trying to man-handle & kick 7-10 of these dogs would only result in you getting added to their dinner list.

In Africa, these dogs actively compete with Lions and Hyenas for food. They use coordinated pack attacks and they don't back down.

I doubt that handgun caliber firearms would have been able to stop these animals in time, but thinking to be able to physically separate these dogs from their prey is really ignorant.

Perhaps that sort of thinking IS ignorant - but then think about it this way... What if it was YOUR child? Wouldn't you want anyone and everyone (including yourself) to do everything humanly possible to save your child's life?

I'd be jumping in to at least make an effort. Standing by and watching without doing anything when someone is in trouble, in danger, or being mauled/maimed/killed by people OR animals is the MAIN PROBLEM with society - Nobody cares about anyone but themselves anymore, and we're TAUGHT to be that way -

"It's not a "Hero license" it's a CCW"
"Be a good witness and call the police"
"Hide under your bed, retreat, run away"

The hell, I say. Do what's right. Nothing worth having is without cost.

 

[Warp]

Coincidentally, I change my carry gun and ammo when I go to a zoo. Seriously.

I pack my 4" .357 with 180gr hard cast lead loaded by Buffalo Bore.

You know...just in case. Penetration is queen and all that.

 

[Rob G]

Originally Posted by Rob G
In A, the child dies horribly and in B, maybe you save him or maybe you kill him quickly if you miss. After which you'll be charged with voluntary manslaughter and possibly be sued in to bankruptcy by the child's parents.

Fixed that for you.

NEVER shoot unless you're sure of your target and what's beyond it. Every time you loose a bullet you're 100% responsible for what it does.

Actually you didn't.

What you did was add more realities of the situation.

I wasn't trying to sound full of bravado or anything like that.

I was stating from an emotional perspective what I would want to do. What would I actually do?

Right here and now? I don't know.

Okay, that's a fair statement and I apologize for misinterpreting what you meant. I agree that the emotional reaction is to want to strike at the animals in some way.

 

[Inebriated]

So, Fotno, your reasoning is that these things can quickly rip something to shreds, so you'd rather get into the melee than use a ranged weapon?

When that "thing" is a child, I would do every thing I could do to help. If that means jumping in, then it means jumping in.

And I say that knowing full well I would not have my gun, since NC doesn't allow carry where admission is charged.

 

[hardluk1]

In NC if you pay a fee to inter the handgun has to stay out side!!

 

[CWL]

Rail Driver,
Sometimes bad things happen and good people die and there is nothing that you can do about it. This was an example of an innocent child paying for dumb parents actions.

I notice that they didn't jump in.

 

[Warp]

So, any links to this article?

 

[Inebriated]

http://old.post-gazette.com/pg/12310/1274524-53.stm

 

[Skribs]

Perhaps that sort of thinking IS ignorant - but then think about it this way... What if it was YOUR child? Wouldn't you want anyone and everyone (including yourself) to do everything humanly possible to save your child's life?

Granted, I don't have kids, but I would much rather see "child mauled by dogs in zoo" than "child and two adults mauled by dogs in zoo."

 

[Rail Driver]

Rail Driver,
Sometimes bad things happen and good people die and there is nothing that you can do about it. This was an example of an innocent child paying for dumb parents actions.

I notice that they didn't jump in.

That just shows what kind of parents they are - Personally I value the lives of my children much more highly than they value theirs (and in the same vein, I value the lives of my children more highly than my own as well).

I don't care about the headlines, I don't care about the accolades I might get if I'm successful, or the charges of animal cruelty/killing or injuring an endangered species, or the potential problems resulting from violating zoo policy - I'm a human being and it's my duty and responsibility to protect and value human life over that of an animal.

 

[Skribs]

Okay, after reading that article...

1) The net obviously didn't prevent someone from falling into the enclosure. However, if the kid bounced and an adult would have gotten caught, then it might have been hard for people to get in.
2) It was a 14-foot drop into the enclosure. That's 1-and-a-half stories, probably onto a hard surface. You'd have to fight those dogs limping.
3) There were 11 total dogs. Grab one, the rest will surround you.
4) For some reason, the zoo was afraid to use real tranq darts, but were willing to use live ammo on the one dog. That seems bizarre (the reporter thought so, too).

 

[Warp]

Okay, after reading that article...

1) The net obviously didn't prevent someone from falling into the enclosure. However, if the kid bounced and an adult would have gotten caught, then it might have been hard for people to get in.
2) It was a 14-foot drop into the enclosure. That's 1-and-a-half stories, probably onto a hard surface. You'd have to fight those dogs limping.
3) There were 11 total dogs. Grab one, the rest will surround you.
4) For some reason, the zoo was afraid to use real tranq darts, but were willing to use live ammo on the one dog. That seems bizarre (the reporter thought so, too).

I also just read the article.

As for entering the enclosure, the only thing I can say for certain is that if it were my child, I'd make the 14 foot jump. Not my child, I don't know. As for making the jump, it doesn't sound like it would be a 14 foot fall, because you'd stop on the net part way there. Maybe even stop on the net and shoot from there. Who knows. Impossible to say. Maybe get tangled in the net and break your leg.

The zoo was afraid to use real darts, the police used firearms. Not zoo employees. That's how I read it.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I thought I'd add some facts to the discussion.

This is from a local who visits this zoo regularly

I visit this zoo frequently. The African Dog exhibit is one of the poorest in regards to seeing anything, as the vantage is really poor. The observation deck, though, always seemed solid, and covered in plexiglass. She had to have hoisted the kid pretty far up for him to fall over. Sad news for sure.

...and here is a diagram of the zoo/enclosure

 

[M-Cameron]

4) For some reason, the zoo was afraid to use real tranq darts, but were willing to use live ammo on the one dog. That seems bizarre (the reporter thought so, too).

the only reasoning i can see behind that is that tranq darts can take up to 20-30 mins to take effect......ide imagine in a case where a child is being attacked, time is of the essence.

it could also be that the tranquilizer could be fatal in humans, now bullets are also dangerous.....but a shot to the leg with a bullet typically isnt fatal.....but if the tranquilizer is fatal itll kill you no matter where it hits you.

 

[Skribs]

<edit>

The zoo was afraid to use real darts, the police used firearms. Not zoo employees. That's how I read it.

Fair point.

 

[Warp]

the only reasoning i can see behind that is that tranq darts can take up to 20-30 mins to take effect......ide imagine in a case where a child is being attacked, time is of the essence.

it could also be that the tranquilizer could be fatal in humans, now bullets are also dangerous.....but a shot to the leg with a bullet typically isnt fatal.....but if the tranquilizer is fatal itll kill you no matter where it hits you.

Zoo staff vs police officers.

 

[Rob G]

I couldn't read the article that was posted by somebody else but I did find this one: http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/national/pittsburgh-zoo-no-time-to-save-child-mauled-to-death-by-african-painted-dogs

This is the harsh part for me:

If someone had jumped in to save him, would it have helped? "In my professional opinion, no," zoo President Barbara Baker, a veterinarian, said at a news conference today. "There were 11 dogs in the exhibit."

Although there were zoo officials within feet of the exhibit, and others rushed to the scene, it was too late -- it was clear the child was dead, Baker said.

11 large predators. I shudder to think of it. It also just occurred to me that my CCW only holds 10 rounds...