Would you shoot ?

[Certaindeaf]

I don't think they move faster than a swirling gory bullet with fangs.

 

[Gordon_Freeman]

I would have jumped in if it was my child, even if I was unarmed.

I think some of these posts are too harsh on the parents of this child. We all make stupid mistakes. Sometimes we get lucky and there is no consequence. Other times the mistake leads to disaster. I would be dead right now if my luck had been different with some mistakes I have made.

 

[psyopspec]

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/379594/

She paused several seconds before saying, “I'm trying to think of a family-sensitive way to address that. The child did not die from the fall. The child was mauled by the dogs.”

 

[Rob G]

First in order to carry concealed you have to take a test don't you? You have to be able to hit a target a reasonable distance don't you?

No, there are states where you don't have to show any abililty to handle a gun at all in order to have a permit. PA is one of those. Their CHLs are issued solely on the basis of a background check.

Well if you can't hit a dog in the rear quarter [you don't have to place it in his head] within let's say 20 yd's, you should not be carrying anything but maybe a cane.

I can absolutely hit a dog in the behind at 60 feet with a handgun, probably most of us on here can. Hitting 11 of them in vital areas (you do have to hit somewhere vital if you want them to stop) at range with a short barreled handgun in a few seconds is a little harder. With my CCW it would also require a reload.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Might get a hangnail or something.

 

[DammitBoy]

That child was doomed in seconds once those dogs were on it. One single bite to the neck and it was game over.

Why do you suppose no one jumped in to save the child?

 

[HoosierQ]

I gotta admit the board, THR, has a dual personality.

Six months ago I mentioned that I confronted some trespassers while carrying my CCW and that the thing got a little heated yet I never considered pulling my CCW...because there was no threat...smart alecs.

You'd think I was Lee Harvery Oswald or something given the response.

Here we have a bunch of Taurus Toting Tarzans fixing to jump into a pit of wolves surrounded by spectators guns a blazin' and very little response to the negative. I mean we have a few "It wouldn't help".

Wow. Consistency fail.

 

[Warp]

Lots of good cheap talk, bluster, and second guessing here. Not much reality though.

If you had asked everyone standing around the fence before the child fell in (including it's parents) if they would immediately jump in to help a child that fell into the dogs, every one of them would have said "YES!".

That must be why every person on this anonymous forum answered "YES!".

Wait...everyone on this anonymous forum didn't answer "YES!"?

Oh.

Well, that would seem to contradict your assertion.

 

[Skribs]

Hoosier, it's because there's a child involved, and there's the emotional reaction at play here. A few others agree with me, though. 11 dogs are going to kill the child before you could even get in there to help, so all you're doing is presenting those dogs with another target to maul.

Shooting the dogs in order to stop the attack would potentially require 11 solid hits. How many people can get off 11 accurate shots at 10 yards on 11 different moving targets (including time to get to a decent vantage point and draw)? I know I can't, I haven't practiced enough. You might scare them off, you might not.

I hope some of you people are never around me if I need help.

Personally, I hope that if I am 100% a goner, people save their own skins instead of coming after me. If I'm toast, everything they sacrifice to try and save me is in vain. Also, the child's life wouldn't be at stake by the time you could get the dogs off him. The child would already be gone.

 

[BADUNAME30]

Thanks everyone for your responses.
It's actualy pretty evident that any attempt to jump in alone, or even a group of people would have indeed been a death sentence for many if not eventualy all.
I agree that even tho these animals are zoo bread that they are in deed wild animlas with wild instincts. Also given the fact that once blood has been tasted/smelled there is a very remote chance of interceeding in any way.
I also agree that no matter what type of gun you had there is no way that you could effectively kill enough of those animals to make any difference.Even if you were Doug Keoning or Jerry Miscilac(sp).
Given the kind of animals in that enclosure, sadly that child, and probably anyone unfamiliar to that pack, was dead and that's all there is to it.
Call me crazy, an emotional irrational thinker or what ever but i have no doubts that i would have without thinking went into harms way,risked jail, life and limb for this or any other child and i'm sure the headlines would read, 2 y/o child and Pgh man dead from mauling of painted dogs at Pgh zoo.
ANY child's life is worth FAR more than mine BAR NONE.

For the record.
That enclosure is a semi wooded affair and any shots fired into it would be fired downward and into dirt.There is only one viewing vantage point that does not allow for riccochettes into other patrons.
Yes, you can legaly carry in the Pgh. zoo.
To the best of my knowledge we have very very few places,except schools and Govt. bldgs, in and around Pgh with them no carry signs/policies. At least, i've yet to encounter one.


"High pressure fire hoses" would be a great idea at the reach of any dangerous animal enclosure.

"Pepper spray ".....in a 2-3 gallon high prssure cannister would also be a good idea.

A better idea, and at the risk of steppin off THR....i will never fathom how caging animals in a zoo can have the slightest effect on thier "endagerment". Animals have been dying off and goin extinct for more reasons that we can imagine for as long as they have existed...so what, let nature take it's course.
GET RIDE OF ZOOS !!!
Wild animals have thier place..right between the mashed potatoes and asparagus.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I would try and shoot the dogs. I don't think I could live with the guilt of just standing by and doing nothing. I could likely live with whatever other consequences happened to me if I tried. Heck, I can't even rule out that I wouldn't have jumped in there myself to try and save the kid. Captstick wrote in one of his books about these dogs. Scarry stuff. Poor child. I've got a young kid and it hits too close to home. In fact, I haven't been able to read the articles in the newspaper.

 

[Skribs]

"Pepper spray ".....in a 2-3 gallon high prssure cannister would also be a good idea.

From what I understand about peppers, this would only work for mammal exhibits. Good idea on the fire hose, though.

I completely disagree with your idea that we should get rid of zoos. I'm not a conservationalist by any means (it's kinda funny going to a zoo cafeteria and ordering a burger, though), but I do like animals. It's fun to go look at all of these impressive creatures that I would never keep as pets. I find things such as snakes, scorpions, and big cats fascinating if viewed through thick glass.

 

[12131]

From what I understand about peppers, this would only work for mammal exhibits. Good idea on the fire hose, though.

I completely disagree with your idea that we should get rid of zoos. I'm not a conservationalist by any means (it's kinda funny going to a zoo cafeteria and ordering a burger, though), but I do like animals. It's fun to go look at all of these impressive creatures that I would never keep as pets. I find things such as snakes, scorpions, and big cats fascinating if viewed through thick glass.

And, I'm not anywhere close to even being a PETA wacko, but imho, wild animals belong in the wild.

 

[HoosierQ]

You gotta wonder what gunshots would do to a crowd that was aggitated, many of whom may not know what was going on. Panic, stampede, maybe another armed citizen pulls his gun not knowing what was going on thinking it was a mass shooting, shoots the "rescue" shooter thinking he's shooting people, misses...the whole thing spirals out of control fast. More people end up hurt or dead because of an attempt to shoot the wild dogs. It might or might not go like that. I am suggesting the liklihood of it going very bad is way higher than it going well.

 

[Rob G]

You gotta wonder what gunshots would do to a crowd that was aggitated, many of whom may not know what was going on. Panic, stampede, maybe another armed citizen pulls his gun not knowing what was going on thinking it was a mass shooting, shoots the "rescue" shooter thinking he's shooting people, misses...the whole thing spirals out of control fast. More people end up hurt or dead because of an attempt to shoot the wild dogs. It might or might not go like that. I am suggesting the liklihood of it going very bad is way higher than it going well.

You know, I never even thought about that HoosierQ. It's another hypothetical question of course but it is an interesting one. I can definitely see how in today's climate any amount of gun fire might make people think there was another mass shooting going on. Although I would hope that anybody responding to it would take a second to assess the situation.

 

[tarosean]

So what, let nature take it's course.

We messed that up a looooong time ago. We should probaby get rid if hospitals too. Eh?

 

[coolluke01]

As a Father I could see no other response than to jump in. Armed with a weapon or not. Although I'm always armed with a horrible rage when it comes to protecting my family.

What bothers me is that with all the bravado shown on this thread, no one there jumped in. Are we just a bunch of blowhards? Or is there really a serious problem with the people of this country. I don't know the specifics. Maybe there wasn't anyone around. All I know, is that if I jumped in my brothers and only a few of my friends would be right behind me. What makes me sad is not that one didn't jump in but that 10 didn't!

I watched Armageddon the other night. The final scene gets me every time. The sacrifice of the hero. A willingness to lay aside your life for another. "greater love has no man that this"

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
- Edmond Burke

 

[Skribs]

I watched Armageddon the other night. The final scene gets me every time. The sacrifice of the hero. A willingness to lay aside your life for another. "greater love has no man that this"

Yeah, that's why I don't like natural disaster movies. The "bad guy" is just an idiot bureaucrat and the real problem is usually something that cannot be fought, but rather survived.

I do think this is a good discussion, because most of our self defense discussion concerns multiple rational attackers or a single large animal. I don't think I've ever seen a discussion on how to handle several medium animals that are in hunt mode, OR how to protect someone else from an animal. It's all just been "what caliber for bearz lolz".

The problem I have with being the hero in this case is that you're likely not setting aside your life for another, but rather adding danger to yourself in attempt to protect a child that's already dead.

Since you said you missed the details:
There were people there, watching horrified. There were 11 "wild" dogs in pack mode hunting.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I think this thread has become exactly what the OP stated he did not want it to devolve into. I was hoping it could stay on the subject of when one could use deadly force and understanding the limitations of one's ability. I was hoping to avoid chest pounding and king of the moral hill stances. This should have been less about what you would do and more about what could be done in similar circumstances

I was remiss in not closing it sooner at page 3, but the new breath of life after that has not been for the better