I have looked over G40 few weeks ago. It is impressive well conceived pistol definitely the best 10mm out there. The frame is cut of electro-optical sight which is nice feature to have. I passed because I bought 1911 earlier. I love the fact that I can get box of 50 .45ACP rounds for $15.
10mm vs .40 S&W
- Thread starter Johnny420
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AABEN
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I have 4 40 and I reload for them. I also make my own bullets. I make them with wheel weight. If I want a soft bullet I will add some pure lead. 2 S&W 1 F&N 1 Daewoo
Monac
Member
Wow. I forgot how long it has been since 10mm was developed. There's been time for people to grow up without knowing its origin story. Here it is, as I understand it:
10mm was developed in the mid-1980's with a lot of input from Jeff Cooper, a retired US Army colonel and a highly respected firearms authority from the 1960's until his death in the 2000's. It was attempt to devise the perfect handgun cartridge, one that would combine the big-bore stopping power of 45ACP with the high magazine capacity of the 9x19mm AND the high kinetic energy of the .357 Magnum.
Unfortunately, this last step - .357 Magnum power - was a bridge too far, IMO. It made the cartridge too long, it made the gun it was designed for (the "Bren 10") too big and heavy, and it meant that 10mm could be chambered in very few existing guns - basically just the Colt 1911. Eliminating .357 Magnum power from the equation resulted in the 40 S&W, which was a success right from the start.
10mm is not as much as of a success as 40 S&W, but neither has it disappeared like 41 Action Express, 401 Powermag, or 9mm Federal. It's in about the same category as 41 Magnum or 32 Magnum, I would say - a niche cartridge with a following large enough to be worth keeping it in production.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
That would be correct. The 10mm started as the Bren Ten long before the 40 S&W was born. The 40 S&W is in fact the spawn of the 10mm cartridge. The original 10mm cartridge had a habit of beating up guns, my first 10mm was a Colt Delta Elite and after about 2,000 rounds the gun was getting really loose. The 40 S&W was the spawn of the 10mm having the 10mm as its parent cartridge.
The 40 S&W
The 10mm is now enjoying a resurgence which is nice because the cartridge was dying slow but sure for several years. That was a shame because the round really is a great round offering up some serious power and velocity.
As to the 357 Sig? There really is no magic or anything new or innovative about it. They took a .40 S&W and necked it down to .357. A fat cartridge with a small bullet capable of hot velocities. However, the concept is nothing new. Back in 1963 a gentleman named Bo Clerke developed the 38/45 (the cartridge went by several other names too). The idea was to neck down a 45 ACP to .357. The cartridge was fired in 1911 pistols originally chambered for the 38 Super. The barrel was reamed to accept the new cartridge. The downside was since we necked a 45 down to 357 after several firings the case necks would crack. The advantage was a fast bullet. I still have loading dies for the round. Like the 7.62 X 25 Russian Tokerev it was a hot little bottleneck for a pistol.
Ron
Jeff Cooper BS Stanford University entered US Marine Core as an officer. I doubt very much he spent a day in a "trench".
X-Rap
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As I remember, Col. Cooper was a staunch promoter/supporte of the 10mm (his baby). He had skin in the game and I'm sure he hoped for similar long term notoriety similar to what Keith, Jordan, Skelton and others had achieved with the big three magnums popular in revolvers.
The original gun company (Bren) failed and the 1911 had a hard time standing up to the beating.
My personal observation was that the round is on the botom of the chart on controlability when loading to potential in both the Colt and Glock I owned.
If I lived in a place where 50yd shots and plentiful doe tags and hogs existed I'd have another but for personal defense I think the 9 or 40 or 357 sig puts more rounds on target faster in a smaller package.
The 10 has a good and long future as a fine medium size/range big game cartridge but stands about as much chance of mainstream police and PD use as the .41 mag.
The original gun company (Bren) failed and the 1911 had a hard time standing up to the beating.
My personal observation was that the round is on the botom of the chart on controlability when loading to potential in both the Colt and Glock I owned.
If I lived in a place where 50yd shots and plentiful doe tags and hogs existed I'd have another but for personal defense I think the 9 or 40 or 357 sig puts more rounds on target faster in a smaller package.
The 10 has a good and long future as a fine medium size/range big game cartridge but stands about as much chance of mainstream police and PD use as the .41 mag.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
When the Bren Ten was being developed they called on Jeff Cooper to develop the cartridge. Personally I liked the cartridge but as I mentioned, after a few thousand rounds my Colt Delta Elite (1911 framed pistol) was beginning to get real loose. The round was beating the gun to death. The two best days for my Colt were the day I bought it and the day I sold it. That was mid to late 80s. So yeah, Cooper had everything to gain if the 10mm would just take off in popularity and demand.
When the cartridge came out the FBI and other law enforcement were all over adopting it. However, that was short lived as some agents were not able to control the round and people with small hands had problems grasping the larger framed guns needed to tame the cartridge with full loads.
Heck, if you ask me, one of the smartest things S&W did was to develop the .40 S&W by shortening the 10 mm case. The 40 was an instant hit and remains a hit today being more manageable than its parent cartridge. Me? I like the 10mm but I was also a fan of the 44 auto-mag.
Ron
Here's how .40 vs. 10mm breaks down today:
The 10mm is a .40 with a longer case. That case can be used for extra powder capacity, or for a longer bullet. If you want to use a gun with an action length and grip designed around a short cartridge (such as a 9mm), then this long case is a drawback. If you prefer a gun designed around a long cartridge (such as a .45ACP or .38 super), then the long cartridge is a benefit, as it is easier to make run reliably.
So, the questions are: 1. do I need more velocity or bullet weight than a .40 can provide? and 2. do I want a "long"-action pistol? If yes and yes, then 10mm is perfect for you. If not, it's not worth the bother. Notions of "excess recoil" as some kind of inherent vice of the 10mm are silly. You can load a 10mm to quite low power factors if you handload. And there's actually quite a number of off-the-shelf 10mm ammo offerings that are squarely in the middle of the .40 ballistic range. Recoil sensitivity may be a reason to not explore the upper end of the 10mm spectrum, and, without that motivation, you may not want one, but recoil is no more inherent in the 10mm than it is in the .40.
The 10mm is a .40 with a longer case. That case can be used for extra powder capacity, or for a longer bullet. If you want to use a gun with an action length and grip designed around a short cartridge (such as a 9mm), then this long case is a drawback. If you prefer a gun designed around a long cartridge (such as a .45ACP or .38 super), then the long cartridge is a benefit, as it is easier to make run reliably.
So, the questions are: 1. do I need more velocity or bullet weight than a .40 can provide? and 2. do I want a "long"-action pistol? If yes and yes, then 10mm is perfect for you. If not, it's not worth the bother. Notions of "excess recoil" as some kind of inherent vice of the 10mm are silly. You can load a 10mm to quite low power factors if you handload. And there's actually quite a number of off-the-shelf 10mm ammo offerings that are squarely in the middle of the .40 ballistic range. Recoil sensitivity may be a reason to not explore the upper end of the 10mm spectrum, and, without that motivation, you may not want one, but recoil is no more inherent in the 10mm than it is in the .40.
X-Rap
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Of course you can download but then you'd have a 40 S&W wouldn't you?
The point of the discussion doesn't seem to be how you can neuter the 10 or blow up a 40 but rather the differences between the two when optimized for their fullest potential otherwise any comparison similar to 38/357, 300 savage/308, 308/30-06, 44 spcl/44mag and so on is worthless.
The point of the discussion doesn't seem to be how you can neuter the 10 or blow up a 40 but rather the differences between the two when optimized for their fullest potential otherwise any comparison similar to 38/357, 300 savage/308, 308/30-06, 44 spcl/44mag and so on is worthless.
redbone
Member
Star PDs were .45 cal, had alloy frames, and were made 1975-1990. .40 cal was released in 1990. I don't think you had a Pd in .40
Pic?
Pic?
That would be one part of the discussion. But the flexibility offered by some cartridges is part of their appeal. And 10mm is a VERY flexible cartridge.
Light and fast? Yes, you can throw 135 grain bullets 1300-1400 fps.
Heavy and slow? You can shoot 220's, and the only limit on lower velocity is not sticking one in the bore.
Wilderness hunting/predator defense? Throw some 200 grain SWC's fast enough to exit the back side of anything in the eastern U.S. at least. And you'll have a lot more of them on tap than you would if carrying a wheelgun, assuming you're not using a S&W 610.
Home defense or street carry? Drop the weight of the bullet a touch to minimize overpenetration, go mid velocity to allow rapid follow up shots.
Want a load for USPSA/IPSC major? No problem, it's like loading .40 except the gun won't blow up if the bullet sets back. And it'll run in a 1911 or 2011 or Tanfoglio or other large-frame gun without all the tweaking needed to make a shorter cartridge feed with complete reliability.
Want to let a new shooter try your favorite gun? No sweat, just stick a moderately heavy bullet over a small charge of fast powder and let them have fun.
I shoot more 10mm than anything else. A small fraction of it is the full-throttle stuff, which is mostly carried in black bear country. Most of it is somewhere else on the spectrum. But it's a big spectrum. And that's a significant part of the 10mm's charm.
First, the 10mm was adopted by the FBI, followed by numerous state and local PDs and agencies (e.g., the Kentucky State Police probably carried it the longest in their S&W 1076s), and continued in duty use through the late '90s until the .40S&W became more widely issued.
Second, Denmark's Sled Patrol Sirius (SPS) ("Slædepatruljen Sirius") carries the 10mm Glock 20 as their military-issue sidearm. The SPS is a Danish Naval unit tasked with conducting long-range patrols in regions of the Artic Circle.
Third, you're comparing apples to oranges - a magnum revolver cartridge to a purpose-designed semi-automatic cartridge.
Despite the revival of the Coonan .357 auto, the various 10mm autoloaders are clearly more abundant and more popular, the latest additions being Sig's four new 10mm P220s.
Speaking only for yourself ...
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Monac
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If someone says that such-and-such a weapon has no military users, and you say it is used by the Danish Navy's armed Arctic sled patrol, I think you are proving THEIR point more than yours, because that is the absolute tiniest amount of military use I can imagine.
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Dude, seriously?The poster I quoted made an unqualified statement that "no military" issues a 10mm pistol. He was wrong. How many issue one is irrelevant.
As well, he was (historically) wrong in denying the 10mm's use in U.S. law enforcement (local, state or federal), when there exists ample evidence to the contrary.
Simple research would have saved the FlameBot the embarrassment of making unqualified, easily disproven statements.
Monac
Member
agtman, my point was that finding an utterly trivial exception simply proves the point about the extent to which 10mm has NOT been adopted by the world's military forces. What you are doing here can fairly be called nitpicking, IMO. It might also be called the exception that proves the rule.
I did not address the use of 10mm by law enforcement, but I would note that almost all of it is in the past, not the present.
BTW, how is it that you know what the Danish Navy's Arctic ski patrol is armed with? I wasn't even sure Denmark HAD a navy any more.
I did not address the use of 10mm by law enforcement, but I would note that almost all of it is in the past, not the present.
BTW, how is it that you know what the Danish Navy's Arctic ski patrol is armed with? I wasn't even sure Denmark HAD a navy any more.
AKElroy
Member
I've decided that I like the .40, mainly due to one weapon, the g23. No meaningful difference in firepower (2rnds) to the 19, and it still fits in my pocket. Yep, I pocket carry a G23 in a desantis nemesis pocket holster. I keep a spare 15 rnd g22 mag in a desantis mag holster in the left pocket. Zero compromise, max concealability.
kerreckt
Member
I thought the Star PD is a .45acp pistol. I have never heard of it in .40S&W. Please enlighten me.
X-Rap
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Don't know what a FlameBot is but I know a FanBoy when I see one.
I bet you impress all your friends when you tell them how YOUR 10mm is issued to Elite Danish Troops for bear protection much like Mini 14 lovers roll out some obscure island nation as issuing their favorite rifle to their troops.
Any data on how many times the guns have been deployed for that purpose?
As to law enforcement, I'd guess statistically there are about as many 10mm in cops holsters as there are 44 mags.
I don't know the whole FBI story but it was a boondoggle to the taxpayer and now it seems they are at the 9mm as their issue caliber.
I never said the 10 wasn't an impressive round but it isn't really practical in all but a few specialized applications IMO.
You can nit pic and split hairs all day but it won't increase the use and application of the round.
You're right about that. Someone arguing about it on THR won't make it more or less popular in any measurable way. However, among the civilian market, the 10mm round seems to be on an upward trajectory in terms of popularity. Will it ever sell as much as 9mm? No. WHO CARES? The round is what it is.
fiftybmg
member
The 10mm Glock gives you 16 rounds, very close to the max capacity of a 9mm, with the power that equals a .45 at a minimum.
The Glock platform is good, handling is great, and muzzle flip can be further improved with the aftermarket steel and tungsten recoil guides.
It is a large pistol, but size is relative.
Go as big as you are comfortable with.
In my opinion, using handloads, it's a great platform to teach female shooters with. It is on the heavy side, and it just handles so well they don't have to fight to hold onto the pistol, allowing them great confidence and ability to develop gun handling skills. Which as they improve the loads can be increased.
Glock is also, if not the easiest slide, one of the easiest for a woman to rack. And even though the 20 is a large frame, it doesn't need giant hands.
[ I base that opinion on my daughter who is 15, just over 5 feet tall, and shot her IDPA classifier with a Glock 20 loaded at 160 power factor with the stock guide rod ]
The Glock platform is good, handling is great, and muzzle flip can be further improved with the aftermarket steel and tungsten recoil guides.
It is a large pistol, but size is relative.
Go as big as you are comfortable with.
In my opinion, using handloads, it's a great platform to teach female shooters with. It is on the heavy side, and it just handles so well they don't have to fight to hold onto the pistol, allowing them great confidence and ability to develop gun handling skills. Which as they improve the loads can be increased.
Glock is also, if not the easiest slide, one of the easiest for a woman to rack. And even though the 20 is a large frame, it doesn't need giant hands.
[ I base that opinion on my daughter who is 15, just over 5 feet tall, and shot her IDPA classifier with a Glock 20 loaded at 160 power factor with the stock guide rod ]
bangswitch
Member
Good post, and says pretty much how I feel about 10mm. I tend to stick to middle weight bullets and fiddle with powder to get what I want. I use 155's in both my .40 and 10mm. I can drive them to around 1500 fps in the G20 if I want a fast load that will stop just about anything out to 30 yards and have never had any issue with bulged cases like I've read about. I can also drop them down to 950 fps and shoot comfortably all day long in IDPA matches, and they make a great self defense load in my compact .40 Ruger.
AFAIC, they say that 60 is the new 50 in age; well I feel that .40/10mm is the new .38/9mm.
The G20 and G29 have been out for good while. I do not understand why anyone would still buy service size revolver in .357. Now that G40 is out there is no need for large .357 revolvers like GP100 or L-framed Smith & Wesson.
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