Looking to develop a non toxic gun oil.

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99% canola, 0.5% other, 0.5% other number 2 is technically a blend of three vegetable oils.

There's nothing illegal about bottling some other product and giving it a snazzy name.

I still say coconut and castor would probably do the trick. In fact, I'm going to mix up a little and give it a try. I also have a tube of food-grade grease that I bought to make experimental bullet lube. I might mix in a smudge of that as well.
 
I have seen a lot of references to lard oil on machine tools.
I always figured that was a hog product, I looked to see how it might be refined different from cooking lard.
Now I find that there is a Lard Oil Co. dealing in petroleum products.
So what are the machinists talking about?
 
Have you thought about Tallow??
It has a history of being used as a lubricant.

I got some 100% Beef Tallow in the pantry, may try that as an AR lube next range trip.




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Thus, I'm that guy who eats organic and uses all natural products as much as possible. But I spend a good deal of time shooting, handling, and cleaning guns; and I don't want to wear gloves every time I pick up a gun, so that's no solution. And I don't want to spend big bucks on frog lube or fireclean because I'm pretty well convinced I can come up with something better for less.

I think it is fine that the OP is concerned about toxic substances in his environment...I agree it is a good thing, to a point. The increasing life spans over the past decades make a lot of environmental arguments hard for me to believe. The stress over worrying about a lot of these issues will shorten our lives more than any toxicity we actually encounter. I am 65 years old and in good health but will more than likely be dead in 20 years or less, nothing I can do about it. Most organic food labeling is just a racket, ie someone certifies that someone else produced said food a certain way. We as consumers have no clue as to validity of said certification. If you think you do then I have some certified, non toxic, edible gun oil for you...Of course it costs 4 times the price of regular gun oil because the certifying entity has to be rewarded and paid for any liabilities arrising out of future labeling validity litigation.
The snake oil salesmen never left, just changed their names. Good luck to you sir in your quest for good health and organic gun oil. It would be ironic in a self defense scenario to lose ones life with a sticky slide because of organic oil. Kind of like bicyclists getting run over while staying in great cardio condition. Definitely a conundrum. lol
 
I've heard different opinions of the IR spectroscopy graphs. Some people say that the bloggers misinterpreted them, others say that they prove it's canola oil. I just don't know. I took chem one, and it didn't even begin to get into that stuff, not that I would remember it anyway.

But, Fireclean has stated in no uncertain terms that it's not just canola oil, and their patent is for a blend of at least three vegetable oils, plus a bunch of additional requirements. If they were using straight up canola oil, then I think they would be getting sued about right now. Not only that, but I think it's illegal to file a fraudulent patent. They also made all kinds of statements to the court about it not being pure canola oil, so they would have committed a crime right there. They're either incredibly stupid or it's not just canola. If they were in such a legally precarious situation, then they probably wouldn't have had the balls to file that lawsuit (which I did not agree with at all BTW, and will never use their product just because of that).

Not to mention they supplied the stuff to various government agencies (another fine example of govment spending run amock). If they lied to the government, then they'll find themselves in the same boat as Eotech. Only probably worse, considering that this would be orders of magnitude more fraudulent than what Eotech did.

In short, I highly doubt that it's just canola, or even that it has canola in it for that matter. I would also suspect that the oils in it have been transesterified with some kind of fatty acid to make it perform well in cool weather. And it probably has some kind of additive to raise the smoke point.
A pending patent isn't false or true. It is an request to patent something based on its uniqueness. Since it looks like Fireclean's patent got rejected, it must not have been very unique.

But as soon as you get a real patent, then the secret is out and you have 20 years of domestic protection on your public formulation and process.

That's why stuff like WD40 isn't patented - you can't have a proprietary secret formula AND a patent.


If Fireclean filed a dubious patent just to be able to say their formula is patent pending, that's their business and not illegal. But a patent is only pending for a year.
 
I think it is fine that the OP is concerned about toxic substances in his environment...I agree it is a good thing, to a point. The increasing life spans over the past decades make a lot of environmental arguments hard for me to believe. The stress over worrying about a lot of these issues will shorten our lives more than any toxicity we actually encounter. I am 65 years old and in good health but will more than likely be dead in 20 years or less, nothing I can do about it. Most organic food labeling is just a racket, ie someone certifies that someone else produced said food a certain way. We as consumers have no clue as to validity of said certification. If you think you do then I have some certified, non toxic, edible gun oil for you...Of course it costs 4 times the price of regular gun oil because the certifying entity has to be rewarded and paid for any liabilities arrising out of future labeling validity litigation.
The snake oil salesmen never left, just changed their names. Good luck to you sir in your quest for good health and organic gun oil. It would be ironic in a self defense scenario to lose ones life with a sticky slide because of organic oil. Kind of like bicyclists getting run over while staying in great cardio condition. Definitely a conundrum. lol

Organic absolutely does mean something, quite a lot actually. It's like anything else, you have to know your source, but organic food tests significantly higher in nutrients. And avoiding chemicals in everyday products is a no brainer. I don't need chemicals in my soap and shampoo, and I certainly don't need all the carcinogenic cleaning products. You want to talk about irony, and that's people who use those new air disinfectants to kill bacteria in the air when the disinfectant itself is 100% more harmful than 99.9% of the bacteria.

And it's not just the increased nutritional value, it's the lack of pesticides. The crap they put on our produce should be illegal, and in some countries it is. And don't even get me started on GMOs. That's another thing that organic automatically avoids, as GMOs aren't allowed to have #9 organic labels. Besides buying certified non GMO organic, there's absolutely no way to know what is and what isn't, as companies have no legal requirement to label GMOs.

Concerning dying in a SD situation because my slide froze up, I already stated I will continue to use mil comm on my defensive weapons, of which I have three. My CC, my backup, and my house gun. Everything else will get whatever oil I come up with, as a money saving effort as much as a health conscious one.

But, I'm starting to experiment with some vegetable oils mixed with some non toxic food grade additives (fatty acids mostly), and the initial results are amazing. I'm using an old Bersa as a test gun, and this new blend I'm trying is amazing. I've never had that slide feel slicker. I even stuck it in the deep freezer at 0* F, and it didn't effect it at all. Smoke point is around 450* F, which is higher than some synthetics, and I know a way to get it up to 550* F by switching to a more refined oil. The trick now is to wait and see if it's going to gum up or not. Cost to produce is under a dollar per ounce. Oh, and it dissolves carbon!!! I put it on a clean gun, and I mean squeaky clean, and it pulled a bunch of carbon out of it. And it definitely conditioned the metal, as the gun now feels like it's coated in teflon and even looks shiny.
 
A pending patent isn't false or true. It is an request to patent something based on its uniqueness. Since it looks like Fireclean's patent got rejected, it must not have been very unique.

But as soon as you get a real patent, then the secret is out and you have 20 years of domestic protection on your public formulation and process.

That's why stuff like WD40 isn't patented - you can't have a proprietary secret formula AND a patent.


If Fireclean filed a dubious patent just to be able to say their formula is patent pending, that's their business and not illegal. But a patent is only pending for a year.

I thought their patent had already been approved. And I didn't realize it had been denied. That somewhat renews my faith in government, or at least in our patent office.

But they still told the court that their product wasn't canola oil, or even close to it. That was the entire basis of their lawsuit. You can't sue someone for saying the sky is blue. They also made public claims that their product wasn't canola oil, as part of their marketing, so if they lied then they'll have to do a recall just like eotech did.
 
RB 17 is advertised as a non-toxic gun cleaner. Old word was it was developed by a guy who noticed the stable floor was clean after he hosed off the horse manure.

Their www shows a label for "Finishing Oil" but the description is just the RB 17 material copied. You could call them up and ask.

http://www.rb17usa.com/
 
I read that the patent was dead here:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...n-lawsuit-bloggers-dismissed-patent-rejected/

It could be wrong.

Fireclean's lawsuit is on their website under news. There is a fair amount of meat to it since the blogger made some specific claims that were then taken up by a competitor. If that competitor, Steel Shield, advertised false claims then they are guilty of something.

http://cleanergun.com/blogs/news

Maybe it was a different lawsuit, but the one they have up is not against the blogger. It is against Steel Shield and its owner.
 
Showed the mass spectrometry results to the Mrs.

She hates these internet slugfests, lol.... But she is a biochemist, amongst her other superpowers.

Her thoughts :

" They'll need zombie Cochran to convince anyone other than a dolt that that substance is anything other than what it's gas assay says it is"

Assuming their exemplar assay ( the substance used as a source for the comparison) is genuine....which, it's been tested three times now, so ya.... Then it's vegetable oil.

That's not illegal, it's just shady.

The patent was rejected. That's telling.

One of two things is going to happen in court now : they are going to have to reveal the formula to someone in the legal chain, likely a jury, or they're going to lose. Again.

There are some titters in the gas assays. There IS something else in there. What is anyone's guess, but they aren't saying, and its a mighty Small amount.

My $5 bet ? It's oleander or castor.
 
I read that the patent was dead here:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...n-lawsuit-bloggers-dismissed-patent-rejected/

It could be wrong.

Fireclean's lawsuit is on their website under news. There is a fair amount of meat to it since the blogger made some specific claims that were then taken up by a competitor. If that competitor, Steel Shield, advertised false claims then they are guilty of something.

http://cleanergun.com/blogs/news

Maybe it was a different lawsuit, but the one they have up is not against the blogger. It is against Steel Shield and its owner.

The one against the bloggers was thrown out of court. Apparently the "news" section of their website is heavily revisionist!:D
 
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Showed the mass spectrometry results to the Mrs.

She hates these internet slugfests, lol.... But she is a biochemist, amongst her other superpowers.

Her thoughts :

" They'll need zombie Cochran to convince anyone other than a dolt that that substance is anything other than what it's gas assay says it is"

Assuming their exemplar assay ( the substance used as a source for the comparison) is genuine....which, it's been tested three times now, so ya.... Then it's vegetable oil.

That's not illegal, it's just shady.

The patent was rejected. That's telling.

One of two things is going to happen in court now : they are going to have to reveal the formula to someone in the legal chain, likely a jury, or they're going to lose. Again.

There are some titters in the gas assays. There IS something else in there. What is anyone's guess, but they aren't saying, and its a mighty Small amount.

My $5 bet ? It's oleander or castor.

I don't think anyone ever questioned that it was vegetable oil, and the company itself was always up front with that. That was the whole point. The internet rumor is that it's pure canola oil, or pure canola with a slight amount of other vegetable oils that have no purpose or benefit other than throwing people off the trail.
 
I think you are fetishizing natural as presumed non-toxic and man-made presumed toxic. Natural is in general more complex and less pure chemically than synthetic and you are going to get a menagerie of chemical compounds from thermal breakdown, much more so than from a PAO-based synthetic lube, for example.

Mike
 
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Does the OP want to have gun oil that can be safely ingested?

I've been using motor oil and rem-oil on my guns for years and clean motor oil from what I understand is not toxic.
 
Yes, I want something safe enough to be eaten. And no, vegetable oils are not more toxic than synthetics when heated, not by any stretch of the imagination. Consuming them in large quantities can be bad in the long run, especially if they've been heated enough to change their molecular structure, but touching a hot gun coated in vegetable oil is no more dangerous than touching a piece of kentucky fried chicken. So long as you don't clean your guns by licking them, there's no health risk posed by vegetable oil, even if it's heated past its smoke point.

The additives I'm looking at are no more harmful. Oleic acid is actually sold as a supplement, and hexanoic acid is used in many food products. There's no risk associated with the minute amounts that would be absorbed through the skin.

Synthetics on the other hand, by their very nature, are going to cause hormone disruption, and may even be carcinogenic, depending on who you listen to. And that's not even taking the additives into account. If we were talking pure mineral oil, the risk would be lower, but it's the additives that make them so unhealthy. And again, mineral oil is a carrier oil, so it's going to increase the natural absorption rate of those chemicals on skin.

I feel like we're spending a lot of time discussing the validity of the concept, rather than how to go about doing it. For people who don't do much with guns, it probably isn't much of an issue. But if you find yourself handling guns on a daily basis, then it's probably wise to try to lower the toxic load.

Not only that, but my initial tests are beginning to convince me that vegetable oils may actually be superior to synthetics. That Bersa I mentioned has never felt slicker, and the vegetable oil is pulling out carbon that I didn't even know was there. Like I said, if it doesn't gum up, then it looks like a success.

I've chosen fractionated coconut oil as the base. I actually take it as a supplement, so I had some around the house to play with. I took a long hard look at castor oil, but it's shelf life is too short. Fractionated coconut oil has an almost infinite shelf life and an iodine value of 1, which makes it the most stable vegetable oil I know of. All I have to do is lower its melting point and raise the smoke point, which shouldn't be too difficult. I know I can get the smoke point up to 400-500* F, and I'm pretty confident that I can get the melting point down below zero. Definitely not something you want to take into the arctic, or even northern states in the winter, but more than sufficient for range shooting.
 
Does the OP want to have gun oil that can be safely ingested?

I've been using motor oil and rem-oil on my guns for years and clean motor oil from what I understand is not toxic.

If you're talking about Mobil 1, it is one of the worst performing oils I've seen tested. I would venture to guess that pretty much any vegetable oil is going to offer as good or better wear protection.
 
I'm wondering one thing, WHY?

I have yet to hear of problems with those who have used the oil's we have uses for 100 years.

Therefore, where is the problem?
 
I switched to non-toxic. I'm temporarily in an apartment, and I had to do something to cut the smell or clean outside on the tiny patio in the heat.

I've been using https://gunwerkz.com/. I like it. A lot. I won't go back. I can clean my guns in the kitchen and an hour later when the wife comes home she doesn't even notice.

I also use their oil and their grease and like it better than what I had been using.
 
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This thread has gone way into left field. Again, I'm not looking for frog lube or fireclean, or any other overpriced veggie oil. I know those things exist, and I feel I can make a better product for about a buck an ounce. If you'll read my posts, I go through a lot of gun oil/solvent. I'm currently using mil comm lube and cleaner on all my guns, and it's just way too expensive.

And I simply refuse to pay mil comm prices for what amounts to vegetable oil! Period.

And I'm not interested in less toxic synthetics, mobil 1, etc. Again, I know those things exist. But they're either toxic, or just as expensive as mil comm with no benefits in safety or performance. I want a completely non toxic CLP, and I want it cheap!

I've settled on fractionated coconut oil as a base, due to the fact that it never dries out or goes rancid. I'm currently needing ways to lower the melting point and raise the smoke point.
 
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