Are there any truly non-corrosive BP substitutes?

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Tallbald

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No I'm not whining. Well, yes I am. But if smokeless powder technology can help reduce rust and corrosion why isn't there the same chemical tweaking devoted to helping us BP devotees? Of course I guess I could simply not be fully educated. Or, on honest reflection, I'm selfishly ungrateful for the substitutes we already do have. Just pondering. Don
 
Yes, Blackhorn 209 is a smokeless powder that has been engineered to be accepted as a black powder substitute. It needs a centerfire primer (either shotgun or rifle) to ignite it reliably. A percussion cap won't do it.

I have had BH 209 loads in a clean barrel last for almost a year and still fire. They showed no corrosion in the barrel.
 
Bob, BH209 is harmless when it hasnt been fired, but once it goes off, the fouling will attract moisture and pit your barrel.
 
True BP is about the easiest of all fouling to clean up/out -- taking no more than 15-20 minutes of barely-soapy water.
Run any reputable CLP down the bore/over the surfaces as you would any other gun & you'll never have a spot of corrosion.

Small price to pay given how miserable all substitutes are by comparison. ;)
 
I'm sure the OP was asking if there are any BP substitutes that are non-corrosive "after they have been fired". The answer to that is no. Any black powder or sub can be loaded into your clean barrel and stored for long periods of time and still fire, but after it has been fired you need to clean the fouling out of your barrel or it will attract moisture and pit your barrel.
 
Black Powder is actually easy to clean up. Use a 98% Alcohol and Murphy's soap. Just pump the misxture in the barrel wirh a jag and patch. Rinse with alcohol it will dry quickly wipe with Ballistol.
 
I find that using the methyl alcohol windshield wiper fluid, straight, results in a clean barrel. If I didn't swab at the range before coming home, I might pour some hot tap water down the barrel to soften the fouling, but that's all I'd add.

Some folks will add Murphy's and Hydrogen Peroxide to the mix, but I dunno about the help that does. HP will simply convert to oxygen and water very quickly, and I don't know that the Murphy's would help much, doesn't seem to make a difference.

Really - the ww fluid is so good that I usually can clean up at the range in less than the time of a relay, and don't have to do much else unless I need to remove the lock to do a super cleanup. I then use bore butter (Wonderlube, Naturlube, etc) or RIG to lightly oil it.
 
david58, the hydrogen peroxide actually cleans the fouling out, the alcohol will help dry the bore, and Murphy's Soap Oil, will at least give the bore a bit of lubrication. It works for me.
 
Peroxide residue will also rust the bore in a heartbeat if not flushed/oiled w/ a CLP.
(and "BoreButter ain't a CLP by a long shot) ;)
 
david58, the hydrogen peroxide actually cleans the fouling out, the alcohol will help dry the bore, and Murphy's Soap Oil, will at least give the bore a bit of lubrication. It works for me.
From a chemist's standpoint, the hydrogen peroxide goes away quite fast if the bottle is not dark and tightly sealed, and will still react with the soap and alcohol. But I do know a lot of folks that use the peroxide in the mix.

Peroxide is THE hand cleaner for post-bp-shooting cleanup.

Peroxide, if used straight up or in too high a percentage in the mix, could lead to surface rusting. NEVER use anything but drug-store peroxide, industrial stuff will definitely cause problems with both the skin and the barrel.
 
Tallbald, I take it you're asking if there is any black powder or substitute that after shooting you don't have to immediately clean it like you would smokeless powder firearm. Nope, they're easy to clean and cheap to clean but you got to clean it.

I think that is the main reason that drives people out of black powder. They start and after a few years get tired of all the cleaning and simply put it away or drop the shooting down to only once or twice a year.
 
MEHAVEY, I've been shooting BP for over 40 years, and have yet to find any rust in the bores of any of my rifles, shotguns or handguns., That is why you mix the ingredients with equal parts of Alcohol, Hydrogen Peroxide, and Murphy's Soap Oil, after using this solution, I use a healthy dose of Thompson's Bore Butter. Tell me have you even tried it?
 
MEHAVEY, I've been shooting BP for over 40 years, and have yet to find any rust in the bores of any of my rifles, shotguns or handguns., That is why you mix the ingredients with equal parts of Alcohol, Hydrogen Peroxide, and Murphy's Soap Oil, after using this solution, I use a healthy dose of Thompson's Bore Butter. Tell me have you even tried it?
H2O2 certainly can cause corrosion. It is an oxidizing agent, and isn't processed in carbon steel because of that corrosion.

I've been shooting muzzleloaders a bit myself, and I have tried the recipe. One of my best friends was a chemist, and thought the concoction rather funny since the H2O2 will oxidize quickly, particularly if the container is not light proof, and the soap and alcohol provide chemical neighbors to help the H2O2 become water. H2O2, in weak concentrations, will react with the powder residue to render it colorless, but the removal happens with the soap.

Bore butter works well for you and me, being in the dry southwest. I don't use a lot, as it doesn't take much. But moving from Oregon, I find rust to be an endangered species here. Back home (in western Oregon, or before that, Tennessee) rust is a real bugaboo, and I used a light coat of RIG instead (Tennessee was danged near impossible, what didn't rust would mildew). Don't know what a "healthy dose" amounts to, but I find a light coat keeps the rust away, and I don't have ignition issues due to over-coating the barrel. Works for both my firelocks and my percussion rifles and guns.

I generally, when hunting, carry a small container (1 or 2 oz) of the windshield washer fluid, and it alone is sufficient to clean my rifle spotless. Sometimes I will put in a bit of Murphy's (and honestly cannot tell you why...), but see no difference in the end. The methyl alcohol is a wonderful drying agent, so little or no moisture is present in the barrel when it has been used and followed with a dry patch.

Your recipe is different from the ones I have seen, using equal parts. If I recall accurately (which, at my age can be either a challenge or an oxymoron), the formula presented to me was two parts wiper fluid, one part of Murphy's, one part H2O2. Too sudsy for me, and, as I said I found the ww fluid itself to work well. I keep a spray bottle in my range box, as opposed to the little bottles that go hunting with me, so we can clean up at the range and not have to mess with it at home (I be lazy).

So, that's my understanding of the concoction. Mostly anecdotal, but I have shot MLs for a week or two and have seen success with the wwfluid, but others have used other formulae that worked well for them. Your mileage, however, may vary.

Cheers!
 
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5782069&postcount=28
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5783646&postcount=32
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5785583&postcount=36

I probably have untold number of BP weapons downstairs (I never count... I might talk in my sleep) :evil:
So yes... I've tried Bore Butter, commercial & otherwise, ...and a whole lotta other "traditional" solutions.)

(The latest hot lick is Mineral oil.... In a word: "Don't.")
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5973325&postcount=3

The BEST solution is plain old warm soapy water -- no extraneous stuff --
and CLP/BREAKFREE/WeaponShield and/or by-the-quart Mobil-1 Full Synthetic
before it goes home.






postscript: If I'm feeling especially paranoidally lugubrious, I'll carry a 2-oz squeeze/airline bottle of Witch's Milk
(Moose Milk fortified w/ Simple Green) into the field. It never takes more than a few patches and a pipecleaner.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...uot-Goo-quot&p=2479587&viewfull=1#post2479587
 
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Geez, you guys are leaning towards needing to be a chemist to clean a BP gun. What happened to hot water and Dawn? That's all I used for years, before I worked in a shop as a smith and was spoiled by T/C #13.....;)
 
Napa water soluble cutting oil and water mixed 7-1 , on a good flannel patch.. No rush to oil the bore when done cleaning either.
No there is no truly non corrosive bp substitutes, the salts and chlorates used in making the stuff are actually worse than the real bp.
BH209 is an interesting stuff, but it's a pretty good thing to heed their warning not to use cleaning solutions that contain water....
 
The modern B/P firearms are made from steel. The old originals were made of soft iron. Would you use soap and water to clean your modern hunting rifle? I would hope not. The flint lock is much easier to clean. The "Flinter" does not use the very corrosive percussion caps.
The problem with B/P is that it is Hygroscopic and attracts and holds moisture from the air. Most of the Subs are actually smokeless powder with added sulphur for smoke. All of these are easily cleaned with a 98% Alcohol and Murphy's soap. Pour the alcohol down follow with some MOS and pump the solution with a jag and rod. The alcohol will evaporate the moisture. Rinse with alcohol and wipe the bore with Ballistol to inhibit flash rust. :)
 
In answer to the original question: As far as I've found all the substitutes cause rust.

Hot water will do the job just fine with black powder residue. Add a little dish soap and it seems to do it quicker. I started shooting BP in the early 70's with advise from the experienced shooter that got me into it. I have never had a barrel rust. No need to make a very simple job more complicated.
 
OK, I would try to be the voice of reason here but most of you already know I am not qualified... The largest source of corrosive gases in BP are the SOx gases. Find a way to remove the sulfur and you will have pretty well stopped the corrosion problem. But let's face facts. Touching off a BP weapon without the clouds of brimstone scented smoke would be like watching a sunset in black and white. Or like having that hokey love song come on the radio when your significant other isn't there to sing along with it while making those eyes at you.

If you can't handle the cleanup afterwards, or the greasy feel of the tallow on the patches when you put in the ball and ram it home. If you have so little faith in yourself as you don't believe you can clean the weapon sufficiently to prevent rusting the barrel... Perhaps you should take up a different hobby, embroidery springs to mind as any mistake can be corrected with a pair of scissors.
 
I use Blackhorn 209 for my T/C Triumph. A couple of years ago after discharging the rifle and going
home for the year I put the rifle on the rack and promptly forgot about it. Didn't mean to, but just got busy
installing wood floors in the house. Well along comes next years hunting season and I go to case up the gun
to take it to the range to check zero. To my horror I see that I had not cleaned it.

So expecting the worst I clean it. To my surprise the barrel cleaned up and look no worse for the year long
wait . Looked as good as the day I bought it.
 
I cleanup with hot water and Dawn, and then wipe down with bore butter. never had a problem with rust. I shoot mainly "holy black" in a flinter as well as in my percussion revolvers, but have also used subs. The subs are a bit harder to clean up, but the results are the same.
 
sistema1927 that's what I do as I bought a pistol kit one time and the directions said that's how to clean and lubricate the metal so I been doing that for years no problem here infact when I store it I use a little heavier amount on the inside and outside of the barrel when I store it for the year!
 
Yesterday I took my sidelock (with a Mag-spark) out to shoot to see if it was still accurate. I shot it last Thanksgiving, reloaded it and forgot about it. I shot it and it was still zeroed at 75 yds. I cleaned it afterwards and found no rust, no corrosion, nothing except a carbon build-up in the Mag-spark.

I believe that this experience with BH 209 confirms that it truly is a non-corrosive powder. Eleven months isn't forever but in Florida's high humidity it qualifies as great.
 
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