Why is the 45-70 so popular?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bull Nutria

Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
814
Location
Houma , LA
My limited experience with the cartridge was with a Ruger #3 that my uncle owned. Man it was brutal on recoil. I really don't get it, how a cartridge with a rainbow trajectory and recoil like a mule is so wildly popular for over a 100 years.
I realize it is very flexible for reloading but so are many other calibers?
Does the 45-70 fill a niche that other modern cartridges have missed?
I would appreciate an explanation, please don't get me wrong every cartridge has it fans and to each his own, but I really don't think the 45-70 is for me!!

What say you? I am just intrigued by the seemingly wild popularity of the 45-70.

Bull
 
It hung on for a long time because it was the last of the BPCR rounds for which ammunition was regularly available. Still somewhat the case, feeding a .38-72 can be done but it isn't cheap.
 
The 405 gr. cast lead bullet at 1200 +/- fps is a excellent cartridge.

It is a excellent long range round. I tied for first place in a 600 yard shooting match with 405 gr. cast lead bullet pushed by 3031 powder.

I used the same load to shoot a buffalo at 165 yards measure by laser range finder. The bullet went completely through the buffalo.

As hunters say you can eat up to the hole meaning there is not a lot of damaged meat around the bullet hole.

I have a friend that thinks he has to load his 45-70 with a 300 gr. jacket bullet at 1800 fps. When shot from his lever action Marlin rifle the recoil is brutal. I can not get him to understand that my load will do everything he wants with a lot less recoil and much more comfort.
 
I purchased a Marlin 1895 a year ago just for fun. I don't hunt with it. I really like being able to chuck giant chunks of lead downrange to hit paper and steel. The ballistics are fun to understand too (yup, it's got the trajectory of a mortar shell). I reload, so rounds are both inexpensive (under $20 per 50 rds.) and light on recoil - I did replace the rubber butt pad with a real Limb Saver grind to fit recoil pad - huge difference. I'm shooting 300 gr. RNFP's downrange at around 1,100 fps. It's a load I can shoot all day, and I have about 160 rounds through the gun. It's always a conversation starter too. I pull the Marlin lever action out and no one looks twice. I open the box of shells and folks are impressed that I'm going to shoot these seeming monster killer rounds. I then tell them they're powder puff loads and let them try and they end up grinning from ear to ear! Just a fun gun to shoot, and if you ever need, it will kill anything that walks.

p.s. can't imagine shooting some of those 350 gr. rounds cruising at well over 2000 fps and generating 3K+ ft. lbs of energy!!!
 
Last edited:
It was good to see the return of the 405. I always liked the depiction of it in Zane Grey books, as a "new" and more powerful cartridge.
I can envisage the recoil being pretty stout in a .45-70 Guide gun. I still want one. :)
It's pretty manageable in my 32" Sharps.
 
I think almost all US service cartridges get civilian followings in the US. There is a built-in base of people familiar with a cartridge when it is in service use, and often there are deals later, on surplus arms and cartridges. After that, inertia keeps the cartridge in use. Perhaps you first heard that the .45-70 works well from your father, who heard it from his father...

The .45-70 is as good as it ever was for the task of launching big chunks of lead at modest speed. With modern arms and components, you can increase its performance if you like. Some people like old fashioned big bore cartridges despite the recoil and trajectory issues you note. They consider the impact of all that lead a very reliable way to put down a game animal.

Short answer: It still works and is still in production. It was the service rifle cartridge for a while in the century before last and never quite went away.

If I am recalling this correctly, the Ruger #3 is a light rifle with an uncushioned buttplate: a kicker.
 
I would tend to say the .45-70 remains to be popular because it was wrapped in the Marlin 1895. If guys wanted big game leverguns over the last several decades (minus a few oddballs like BLR's or Marlin Express cartridges), the cartridge choices have been few - effectively the .30-30 and the .45-70. The RCC's don't enjoy as much following for big game as these two, and the other cartridges like 35rem, 444, and 450 just don't enjoy the volume either.

It's incredibly powerful, but still moderate on recoil for its class. It's components are incredibly easy to find, and it's incredibly easy to load for. What's not to like?

I've heard so many times, so many guys talk about excessive recoil in the .45-70 - like any rifle cartridge with substantial recoil, a poorly fit stock will magnify recoil. My wife picked up a .45-70 as her first deer rifle, she's 5'3" and 125lbs, and often shoots it from the bench or prone - for a well fit stock, recoil is largely mental.
 
I think all of the above responses are correct, plus I suspect the great .47-70's popularity even today has something to do with nostalgia - i.e., "My Granddad had one." Which in my case, is true.:)
 
My Shiloh Hartford is a beautiful rifle that happens to be a 45-70; reloading is very simple, recoil is "average" (I load to BP levels with 3031, 405 FN lead in the 1300 fps range) and it is very accurate. It is just one of the calibers that I shoot - I like to go to the range occasionally and rotate the guns I shoot. My 45-70 is just another gun/ caliber that I take to shoot something different. It is fun to shoot but so are my other calibers - the 45-70 holds no more special place in my shooting stable than any other rifle or handgun. It does things differently than other calibers; it brings variety to the bench. It is a caliber among many, many calibers - if you like the 45-70 then shoot it, if you like some other caliber then shoot it. To me, it is just having a variety to keep things interesting.
 
My limited experience with the cartridge was with a Ruger #3 that my uncle owned. Man it was brutal on recoil. I really don't get it, how a cartridge with a rainbow trajectory and recoil like a mule is so wildly popular for over a 100 years.
I realize it is very flexible for reloading but so are many other calibers?
Does the 45-70 fill a niche that other modern cartridges have missed?
I would appreciate an explanation, please don't get me wrong every cartridge has it fans and to each his own, but I really don't think the 45-70 is for me!!

What say you? I am just intrigued by the seemingly wild popularity of the 45-70.

Bull
One word, nostalgia. It was the cartridge used during the Indian Wars. It won't do anything that a .30-06 won't do, and do better with less recoil. But hey, it's what they used back then.
 
Ive shot the Henry lever in .45-70 with 405s at 1700 (according to the guy whos gun it was), and i didnt find it uncomfortable. I also used some 405s at 1650 from my 458 socom for cows, punched clean thru one i shot in the shoulders.
Theres no other cartridge ive used, or seen used, for cows that have gone clean thru them or droped them on the spot.

Theres something to be said for big, heavy, bullets at moderate velocity.

I would not i think, like to shoot any gun that launched those bullets at that velocity, that weighed less than 7.5-8lbs tho. If it gets closer to 2k than id want it a pound or so heavier.
 
I love the 45-70 and yes you can load it up to heavy hot super powerful loads or load it down to powder puff loads that still will get the job done! I bought cast bullets from Missouri bullet company when I had my rifle I loaded 405gr bullets with smokeless powder can't remember now which but it was fun and easy on the shoulder and I have loaded some heavier stuff as well! but it's a versatile cartridge and is a pleasant gun to shoot with the right loads! I wanna get another one as a lightning strike burned the house down and destroyed my marlin 1895 rifle so I now wanna replace it with the new marlin 1895gbl I like the looks of this rifle!!! :)
 
My .45-70 Gov't hunting experience was with a T/C Encore pistol. That cartridge, with hand loaded rounds, will drop a Russian boar right quick. I don't recall ever using my Ruger No. 1 .45-70 on a hunt. Its recoil was brutal on my face. My impression: the .45-70 is very effective, even in a 15" handgun!
 
I have wanted a 444 or 45/70 my whole life and finally got a 444 just recently. I'm not sure I'm crazy about it. Its a whole lot of kicking on my end of the gun for not all that much energy at 150 yards though I'm sure it will get the job done on anything you can hit. The point blank aiming range is only about 150 yards. Past that your going to need a range finder and a drop chart if your going to place the first shot where you want it. Unless your alot better at this than me anyway! I have a couple deer stands where you can only see 75-100 yards so it should do perfectly for that.

In any case I agree that 50% of people just want a big bore cannon of a thing to shoot and the other 50% just like the nostalgia of it. Neither of them are wrong I guess.
 
History. I think people want a touchstone with the past. They want a way to relate to the soldier and trooper on the plains; the frontiersman in the mountains.
Back when the "new" 1895 Marlin came out, those were my reasons for choosing it and I accepted the consequences. It's capabilities forced on me, and I gladly accepted this, owning a 2 rifle battery instead of only one universal big game hunting rifle and cartridge. Instead of getting the 30-06 only, I could have the 45-70 for the close range, in the brush situations, and the .270 Win for cases where the hunting distances could be stretched further then say 200 yards. I could have a fast firing and tie to the past lever rifle, and gnat -swatting precision bolt rifle. One rifle/cartridge with ties to the past, and a rifle/cartridge rooted in the present.
 
"...all US service cartridges get civilian followings in the US..." Yep, but it is all of 'em. Even the Krag that you can only get seasonally. The .45-70's demise has been coming for well over 100 years now.
It lets you shoot a BP rifle or carbine while playing 'Cowboys/Buffalo Hunter', a lever action with Teddy Roosevelt or a relatively modest cost large calibre for playing Great White Hunter.
 
I think almost all US service cartridges get civilian followings in the US. There is a built-in base of people familiar with a cartridge when it is in service use, and often there are deals later, on surplus arms and cartridges. After that, inertia keeps the cartridge in use. Perhaps you first heard that the .45-70 works well from your father, who heard it from his father...

The .45-70 is as good as it ever was for the task of launching big chunks of lead at modest speed. With modern arms and components, you can increase its performance if you like. Some people like old fashioned big bore cartridges despite the recoil and trajectory issues you note. They consider the impact of all that lead a very reliable way to put down a game animal.

Short answer: It still works and is still in production. It was the service rifle cartridge for a while in the century before last and never quite went away.

If I am recalling this correctly, the Ruger #3 is a light rifle with an uncushioned buttplate: a kicker.
I have wanted a 444 or 45/70 my whole life and finally got a 444 just recently. I'm not sure I'm crazy about it. Its a whole lot of kicking on my end of the gun for not all that much energy at 150 yards though I'm sure it will get the job done on anything you can hit. The point blank aiming range is only about 150 yards. Past that your going to need a range finder and a drop chart if your going to place the first shot where you want it. Unless your alot better at this than me anyway! I have a couple deer stands where you can only see 75-100 yards so it should do perfectly for that.

In any case I agree that 50% of people just want a big bore cannon of a thing to shoot and the other 50% just like the nostalgia of it. Neither of them are wrong I guess.
Pretty sure 444 uses pistol bullets with BC like a badminton birdie limiting range. 45/70 uses longer rifle bullets
 
With the greatest respect to the OP, this "rainbow trajectory" stuff is a red herring. The 45-70 comes from a different era in firearms technology and was designed for a propellant that required substantial case volume to propel large bore bullets of 400 - 550 grs at deadly velocities. Large bore, heavy weight bullets do not require the terminal velocity of smaller bore, lower weight bullets to achieve the desired results:

"The firing was done by Mr. R.T Hare of Springfield Armory who has the enviable distinction, so far as is known, of being the only person in the world who has hit the 'Bull's-Eye' six feet in diameter at 2,500 yards with three different rifles, and who has ever fired at and hit so small a target as that described in this report at 3,200 yards.

In comparison with this, all other so-called 'long range firing' pales into insignificance. The gun was held under the arm, a muzzle rest only being used" - From The Report of the Secretary of War, 1880, Volume III, under the chapter titled, "Extreme Ranges of Military Small Arms," and describing the Sandy Hook Trials of 1879 and the results for the 45-70 from Trap Door rifles.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/843705/posts

Small bore bullets require high terminal velocity to transfer the levels of energy required for effective use. In doing so, they deliver a flatter trajectory and less recoil. That is all quite good and a reason that we like zippy, small bores. But there remains something to be said for displacement and while there clearly is a substitute for cubic inches, it may not always be a good one.

The 416 Rigby, 458 Winchester, 404 Jeffery and other fabled large bore dangerous game cartridges deliver heavy weight with relatively flat trajectory, albeit generally in use at 100 yards or less. They do so at the cost of very considerable recoil.

While the OP writes of the 45-70 delivering heavy recoil 1) that's relative - the above mentioned big bores offer substantially more recoil 2) that depends on the weight of the rifle - in an 18" Marlin Guide Gun, a very handy rifle, it will do. In a 10 lbs rolling block, not so much. Use black powder rather than smokeless, and the recoil becomes a hard push rather than the snap of smokeless.

The 45-70 propels enough bullet to shoot through any game native to North America at any reasonable distance. It was responsible for the near extinction of the bison. It does so with less recoil than both the larger dangerous game cartridges and smaller bore, flatter trajectory cartridges such as the 375 H&H, 350 Magnum, 300 Win Mag, let alone the Weatherby Magna. There are instances where less recoil will allow some shooters to be more accurate. The 45-70 can also be had in rifles that cost considerably less than those built for these magnum rounds. A Marlin 1895 can be had new in the $650 - 700 range. Even fairly tatty used 375 H&H bolt guns will be hard to find at that price.

But, the rainbow. Physics tells us that every cartridge begins to drop below the plane of the muzzle shortly after departing said muzzle. So the rainbow is entirely relative. Man up and learn to shoot, and the 45-70 presents no particular challenge. One learns fairly quickly what the drop is at various ranges and therefore, where one's hold needs to be. The hundreds of folks that shoot 45-70 at the Quigley every year out to 800 yards and beyond will be quite surprised to learn that they cannot do so.

Horses for courses. The 45-70 is not a great round for prairie dog shooting. I predict that it never will be. It was very good at killing very large bison. It still is. Since its debut in the last quarter of the 19th Century, a lot has happened in firearms and cartridge technology and we have a lot more options available. The 45-70 remains very good at killing medium to large game at short to medium distances and very interesting to use at quite long distances. And, there's an important element of nostalgia. And there are very odd folks like me that still like to pack them full of black powder and try to hit targets rather far away with big hunks of lead. That's why it's still around.
 
I can remember playing with some cowboy loads, shooting at 200 yards, with a 300 grain lead bullet at a foot square metal target. I had to aim high to "rainbow" it in. I could pull the trigger and even lower the rifle before I heard the waap of hitting the target. Almost like counting 1001, 1002, .....waap.

I got the rifle in 2003 with money I saved during the war. I wanted it so I could load it a bit more than my 45 Colt loads when needed and about the same when not.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top