Assume I know nothing about AR15s...

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I just cant get over the fact that a man can have $500 in his pocket and have several different choices of AR to buy. I never thought id see the day that $500 would purchase a brand spanking new AR, much less have options. Good days in the gun buying world!

I like the Ruger, m&p sport, and i dont have personal experience with but a guy i know says the ATI AR he has runs like a sewing machine. I also like the PSA direction as well. You wont save any $ really but you will have a gun with the exact parts you wanted. Down side, if you have problems down the road it helps to have a name brand to turn to for help so for entry level AR's id rather buy new from a company and not PSA although building your own is fun and informative.

I personally would go with Rugers 5.56/223 and S&W Sport II 7.62/308 if if i was buying a budget AR.
 
With todays market, if your just going to build a stock budget gun with standard M4 furniture, your better off just buying one of the entry leave guns. It's hard to build a budget gun for under $425.
Now if you want fancy furniture, mid length gas system, lightweight barrel with nitride finish and a few other gadgets, $550 to $650 will build you a rifle that would cost you $800 to $1400.
Check out the post I have on the Red & Black build.
Red upper with 15" rail = $150
Mag Tactical lower= $30
MFT buttstock = $40
Strike Industries LW red takedown pins set = $15
Strike Industries Phantom charging handle = $32
Strike Industries dust cover = $14
Odin works red extended mag release = $15

Parts needed or on order.
Red buffer tube = $28 to $35
LPK = $40
Ambi selector switch= $29
Lightweight Nitride 16" 1/8 223 Wylde barrel = $80
Muzzle brake = $25 to $55
Buffer and spring = $12
Black nitride BCG = $80
P Mag = $9
Forward assist = $10
Going with the upper end price of parts that need to be ordered the total will be right at $646.
Now this build has right at $210 worth of upgrades. Some are for looks and others due to my son being left handed.
I could do it in all black with out the fancy stuff for around $425.

So why do I want any of those things? Remember, zero AR knowledge. I'm the CZ guy. :) Why is a mid length gas system desirable as opposed to the carbine length? Why the nitride finish? Why new take down pins? I really don't know any of the questions to even ask to begin with a new rifle. My service rifle was an M-14, for crying out loud. :) But seriously, thank you very much for going into detail on your build. just wish I knew what it meant.
 
So why do I want any of those things? Remember, zero AR knowledge. I'm the CZ guy. :) Why is a mid length gas system desirable as opposed to the carbine length? Why the nitride finish? Why new take down pins? I really don't know any of the questions to even ask to begin with a new rifle. My service rifle was an M-14, for crying out loud. :) But seriously, thank you very much for going into detail on your build. just wish I knew what it meant.
Like I stated, there are over $200 in upgrade parts for looks (RED STUFF) and others to accommodate my left handed 13yo son.
Black Nitride finish is really a metal treatment. It hardens the surface and protects against corrosion and tend to be more accurate then chrome lined barrels. Plus they cost less then chrome lined barrels. Chrome lining is a coating that will wear. A lot of entry level ARs have a standard parkrized barrels . Ruger and S&W entry level guns come with Black Nitried barrels.
Carbine gas system vs Med length gas system. Mid Length is two inches longer = smoother recoil, two inch longer handguard = more area to put your hand. The biggest plus is that you can mount the bayonet for the M16/M4 if you have the front sight tower. This = big plus for the Zombie Apocalypse.;)
The rifle you linked to at PSA is a really good buy.
 
Why is a mid length gas system desirable as opposed to the carbine length?

A carbine length gas system has its gas port located closer to the chamber than a mid-length gas system. (A rifle length gas system is further still. The mid-length gas system falls roughly midway between the carbine and rifle, thus it's name.) The closer to the chamber the port is located, the higher the pressure of the expanding gas used to operate the action of the AR. The advantage to the mid-length over the carbine (and rifle over the mid-length) is that the lower the pressure at the point the gas port is located, the more forgiving it is of gas port diameter. The carbine gas system is more sensitive to smaller differences in gas port diameters than the mid-length.

In reality, gas port diameter is much more important than gas port location. It's far better to have a carbine length gas system with the right gas port than a middy with a gas port that's too large. Far too many AR makers use oversized gas ports resulting in a rifle that's over-gassed. Over gassed rifles have sharper recoil, carrier bounce and are harder on parts (especially the extractor spring) than necessary.

Some will bring up something called "dwell time", which by definition is the time the bullet takes to go from the gas port to the muzzle, but this time is so short, it has no practical affect on the gas or the function of the rifle. This is because the action doesn't pressurize to operating levels until after the bullet uncorks the muzzle. Gas operated rifles operate off the pressure that is in the rifle after the bullet has passed the muzzle.

When choosing an AR, make sure the barrel has the right gas port diameter for it's length and port location. The ideal gas port size for a 16" barrel with a carbine gas system is smaller than the ideal port size for a 16" barrel with a mid-length gas system. The ideal port size for a 20" barrel with a rifle length gas system is larger still.

The off the shelf AR carbines giving the shooter the best balanced and widest span of operation with a variety of ammunition under many environmental conditions is the Colt 6920, 6720 and the Colt 6960
 
A carbine length gas system has its gas port located closer to the chamber than a mid-length gas system. (A rifle length gas system is further still. The mid-length gas system falls roughly midway between the carbine and rifle, thus it's name.) The closer to the chamber the port is located, the higher the pressure of the expanding gas used to operate the action of the AR. The advantage to the mid-length over the carbine (and rifle over the mid-length) is that the lower the pressure at the point the gas port is located, the more forgiving it is of gas port diameter. The carbine gas system is more sensitive to smaller differences in gas port diameters than the mid-length.

In reality, gas port diameter is much more important than gas port location. It's far better to have a carbine length gas system with the right gas port than a middy with a gas port that's too large. Far too many AR makers use oversized gas ports resulting in a rifle that's over-gassed. Over gassed rifles have sharper recoil, carrier bounce and are harder on parts (especially the extractor spring) than necessary.

Some will bring up something called "dwell time", which by definition is the time the bullet takes to go from the gas port to the muzzle, but this time is so short, it has no practical affect on the gas or the function of the rifle. This is because the action doesn't pressurize to operating levels until after the bullet uncorks the muzzle. Gas operated rifles operate off the pressure that is in the rifle after the bullet has passed the muzzle.

When choosing an AR, make sure the barrel has the right gas port diameter for it's length and port location. The ideal gas port size for a 16" barrel with a carbine gas system is smaller than the ideal port size for a 16" barrel with a mid-length gas system. The ideal port size for a 20" barrel with a rifle length gas system is larger still.

The off the shelf AR carbines giving the shooter the best balanced and widest span of operation with a variety of ammunition under many environmental conditions is the Colt 6920, 6720 and the Colt 6960

Now before you get in way over the OP's head, Tell me how many AR manufactures or barrel manufactures that list gas port size? You did forget to add that the Mid length gas system came out to deal with the short comings of the carbine gas system.
The Colt 6920, 6720 and 6960 are out of the OP's price range and are not considered entry level guns.


PSA Freedom barrels in general are not as precise as their Premium barrels. Groups will on the average be about 1 MOA larger. PSA kits come with carbine weigh buffers which are too light. You'll need to change it out to an H or H2 buffer
What entry level AR carbine comes with anything other then a standard weight carbine buffer? I do agree that the heaver buffers do work better on most carbines. A heaver buffer is a good upgrade that will cost you $30 to $50.
 
Now before you get in way over the OP's head, Tell me how many AR manufactures or barrel manufactures that list gas port size?

Very few makers list or will tell you what the port size of their barrels are. But I can tell you from experience tuning ARs to run suppressed or unsuppressed that the gas ports of the Colts I've played with are on the money.

You did forget to add that the Mid length gas system came out to deal with the short comings of the carbine gas system.

The industry has learned a lot about port sizes, buffer weights, extractor springs and action springs since Armalite developed the middy. The biggest problem with a 16" carbine gas system AR was over gassing and a weak extractor spring. Once the right gas port size was figured out and Colt redesigned the extractor springs, the shortcomings of the carbine gas system have vanished.

The Colt 6920, 6720 and 6960 are out of the OP's price range and are not considered entry level guns.

Colts cost more than the $500 limit armoredman has set. But the 6920 and 6720 are perfect entry level AR carbines because all a shooter has to do is clean off the preservative, lube and add ammo to get shooting. No worries about spring quality, feed ramps, consumer grade parts or extra features or furniture that drive up cost but add no value. A budget carbine that's under-buffered, over-gassed and fitted with consumer grade springs will soon have a shooter new to ARs spending more time trying to troubleshoot their new rifle than shooting it.

What entry level AR carbine comes with anything other then a standard weight carbine buffer? I do agree that the heaver buffers do work better on most carbines. A heaver buffer is a good upgrade that will cost you $30 to $50.

Colt civilian carbines come from the factory with H buffers. Colt military carbines have H2 buffers. The original buffer is the 5.3 oz rifle buffer. H and H2 buffers are not heavy buffers. They are the standard weights for M4 carbine style ARs.

An entry level AR isn't defined by cost. The entry level AR is a basic carbine or rifle that gives the shooter trouble free operation and good value for the dollar.

Let's say armoredman orders the PSA rifle in question. It will cost as follows-
-$449 for the rifle
-$25 for FFL fees
-$23 for a PSA H buffer
-$55 for a BUIS
-$25 for springs (PSA extractor & action springs tend to start failing after 2 or 3 hundred rounds)
-$30 for 2 Magpul 30 round magazine
-Total $607

That's not bad, really. But Freedom barrels do tend to be over-gassed and deliver 2-3 MOA precision

But what if he buys a 6920 with Magpul Slimline furniture from G&R Tactical?
-$919 (after discount code) with two Colt 20 round mags and Magpul Buis
-$10 shipping
-$25 FFL fees
-Total $954

That's $350 more. That's $350 that could be spent towards ammo, or pay for most of an Aimpoint Pro. But that's also for an AR that's already correctly tuned, that already has the right buffer and springs, that won't start having extraction problems after a few hundred rounds. That's for an AR that has all quality in spec small parts.

I had a PSA and after sent the upper back to have the feed ramps cut right, replaced the underweight buffer and worn consumer grade springs, it ran great. I loved it. It came with a Wilson stainless steel barrel which gave good enough accuracy with blaster ammo. But I didn't have to do anything to my Colt 6920 to get it to run right. I'm not planning to ever sell the Colt, but if I do, I'll recover a higher percentage of my investment than I would by selling the PSA.

In the end, armoredman is going to have to make up his mind for himself. Pay $607 for an AR and the needed upgrade parts and likely has an over-sized gas port, or $954 for a Colt that he can rely on right out of the box with an action that has been subjected to years of refinement. It's also possible that with careful shopping, a couple hundred dollars can be shaved off the price of the Colt.
 
armoredman wrote:
Only thing that is an absolute must is something that stops the SPROIIIIINNNNNGGGG in the ear.

Strangely enough, I've never noticed an AR making a SPROING sound.

Must be the only benefit of tinnitus.
 
PSA CHF barrelled uppers are made by FN and have proper port size. Add a PSA premium bcg and you have an upper that is as good as any made by Colt, IMO.

M
 
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MistWolf
If more people thought like you, Colt would not be in financial trouble and PSA would be out of business.:rofl:
Now I do agree that Colt makes a nice gun, but some of that money spent is just paying for the pony.
Now when someone is looking for an entry level AR with a $500 budget spending another $200 or $300 is a bit over budget.
I have an Olympic Arms AR that I picked up back in 2007 that has been used to put more rounds down range then I can count. I also have a S&W M&P 15, not the Sport model, that runs great. The rest of the 20 some odd AR I built myself.
The OP is not looking for his next battle rifle, just something to have fun with.
Right now it's a buyers market for AR 15s. For $500 there are a few different good guns to choose from.
A friend asked me to build him another rifle. Today I ordered a kit from PSA on sale for $419.99 with free shipping..
PSA 16" 5.56 NATO 1:7 Midlength Nitride 13.5" Lightweight Keymod MOE EPT Rifle Kit w/ MBUS Sight Set
He's picking up a stripped Anderson lower for $55 from a local shop for the build. For $475 he's going to have a nice rifle.
Armoredman
Tell you what, if you go with the PSA that you linked, I will help you out. I will sell you a Magpul MBUS rear sight and mags for cost. Sight=$40 Mags=$9 ech. You just let me know.:D
 
MistWolf
If more people thought like you, Colt would not be in financial trouble and PSA would be out of business

Colt's financial problems run far deeper than that. I bought several PSAs and have recommended PSAs in the past. If more people thought like me, they'd go find out for themselves.

Now I do agree that Colt makes a nice gun, but some of that money spent is just paying for the pony.

Have you ever taken apart a Colt and put it back together? There are more than a few small details Colt gets right. Part of paying for the pony means things get done right. I've put together and taken apart PSAs as well

Now when someone is looking for an entry level AR with a $500 budget spending another $200 or $300 is a bit over budget.

What's that got to do with it? I didn't tell armoredman to get a Colt instead. I just pointed out that Colt functions because Colt gets it right. It's a "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" kind of thing. It says "If you want to see what works, what buffer, what port size, look at the Colt. See how the budget AR compares".

The OP is not looking for his next battle rifle, just something to have fun with.

What's that got to do with it? It's the same thing as saying "It's OK to buy an AR that's of lesser quality, of lesser reliability because you're just going to the range". That's ridiculous. A rifle that doesn't function is frustrating, even if it's just for busting dirt clods. Why put up with that?

Right now it's a buyers market for AR 15s. For $500 there are a few different good guns to choose from.
A friend asked me to build him another rifle. Today I ordered a kit from PSA on sale for $419.99 with free shipping..
PSA 16" 5.56 NATO 1:7 Midlength Nitride 13.5" Lightweight Keymod MOE EPT Rifle Kit w/ MBUS Sight Set
He's picking up a stripped Anderson lower for $55 from a local shop for the build. For $475 he's going to have a nice rifle.

It'll be a nice rifle after the buffer and springs are upgraded. I also think a PSA rifle kit deserves a PSA lower.

armoredman, if getting the PSA means you get out shooting and learning sooner, go for it. When sorted out, the PSA- the right PSA (stay away from PTAC) will make a good rifle
 
I have a Delton Sport, which is about as low-end as ARs get, and I've never heard it sproing. I've never intentionally listened for it, and I kind of don't want to - it seems like one of those things you'd never be able to un-hear once you finally detected it. But just shooting the gun, I've never noticed it.
 
I think the best budget rifle is the Aero Precision AC-15 midlength. Brownells had it in sale often and with promo codes it's around $500. You get higher quality components compared to the SW or Ruger such as MPI texted barrel, MPI/HPT bolt and a 7075 buffer tube.
 
the SPROIIIIINNNNNGGGG in the ear
Yes I know this sound the M16A2 had it , The first time I shot Uncle Sams M16 I thought I was given a broken rifle just to find out this noise was normal and the rest of the company had the same noise with their M16A2 then it became a normal noise , I think this noise is worse on a full size service rifle my civilian AR15A2 still has a bit of this noise, but with my AR carbines I do not notice it , really now is a great time to buy an AR I see the sport 2 and ruger AR both under $500 and I think dpms had a rebate going the made one of their Ar's under $400
 
if you want to get rid of the sproing, just change out the buffer and spring with a JP silent captured recoil spring. i have one and love it. no more sproing and it runs buttery smooth.
 
With a $500 budget for a lightweight rifle, I would go with PSA and combine one of their uppers, and a lower. If it makes a "sproing" noise, I'd grease the spring. For the upper I'd go with something like this:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...a-13-5-freedom-upper-no-bcg-or-ch-507291.html
Relative to the "default" M4 clone, it's got a light barrel (you requested light), stainless barrel, and a hand guard which free floats the barrel and reduces shift in point of impact as you shift firing positions. The gas system is also mid length which tends to cycle smoother in a 16" than carbine length.

Then I would get a garden variety lower:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/complete-psa-ar-15-lower-classic-edition.html
Which meets your requirement for a collapsible stock and is otherwise uninteresting.

A bolt carier group:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...p-mil-spec-ar-15-223-remington-556x45mm-matte
and charging handle:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/760060/dpms-charging-handle-assembly-ar-15-aluminum-matte

And you've got a complete rifle. The advantage of this vs. an off the shelf Ruger is that you get a free float hand guard and your desired lighter weight. If I was going to pick an off the shelf $500 rifle, I'd definitely get the Ruger for the 1:8" twist barrel vs. the 1:9" in the S&W. Faster twist barrels let you stabilize heavier, more aerodynamic bullets and thus increase your ammo options.
 
Wow
OP as you see, there are tons of options.
I like PSA as they have some great inexpensive ARs for low cost.
S&Ws M&P Sport is another nice entry AR in your price range r very close.
Rural King reguraly has others such as Ruger, DPMS in your budget range.

I've posted that my first AR was one I bought. I had to sell it do to some personal hard times. When things got better, I bought a PSA lower and upper. I'm now putting together another AR from parts and have documented the build. So far I have about $225 in the lower but I have a nicer stock, grip, and trigger than the base PSA. I expect the upper to run me under $500. Then another $250 to $300 for an optic.

I mention this as ARs are easy to work on, take apart, reconfigure etc.

I suggest you look at some, then pick one. Get it. Shoot it, then learn about them . You'll find as you shoot them you'll find things you love, things you want you change and things you hate. At that point you can either start making changes or get another and make it the way you want (that's why I'm making the second one). In my case I like the PSA and won't mess with it, I'll save my new one for that.

One word of caution. If you get an AR and start modifying them you'll be addicted. I won't mention anyone out by name but there are evil folks here who feed the AR habit. And I'm now an AR addict. So be forewarned.

Oh, and as long as you get a name brand or one of the highly mentioned ones I think you won't go wrong as you can make the changes to make it just right for you.
 
One word of caution. If you get an AR and start modifying them you'll be addicted. I won't mention anyone out by name but there are evil folks here who feed the AR habit. And I'm now an AR addict. So be forewarned.

Oh, and as long as you get a name brand or one of the highly mentioned ones I think you won't go wrong as you can make the changes to make it just right for you.
I have had nothing to do with this mans addiction, I can't even remember his address. :neener:
 
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