So I finally did it

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By the way here are my first ever three shots with that M&P15 (editorial comment by Mrs. v35):

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That's just with the built-in Magpul sights from a bench rest at 50 yd – if you call a duffel bag a "bench rest". Since then, I mounted a scope that exceeds the cost of the rifle, and I've only gotten worse :rofl:
 
Nice! I didn't mean CDNN - I've dealt with them in the past with great results. I meant DelTon. :) I could look for a used one, wouldn't bother me too much, but most are customized the way people wanted them. I've also seen guys trying to sell them for pre election prices. Ouch.
 
armoredman said:
I believe I am looking forward to this. ;)
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Lol
It looks like you'll be learning the secret handshake very soon.

In all seriousness, whatever you do, however you start doesn't matter. You'll have fun, change things, you'll get new stuff, and there will always be something new and exciting luring you. Just make a monthly budget item for this hobby and set the $$ aside when you want a more expensive item. Squirl it away so the Mrs can't find it and you'll be fine.

I won't mention
AR carbine
6.5 Grendel
300 Blackout
Suppressed
SBRs
AR pistols

Help............ can someone please help me out of this rabbit hole

And our see one of the old threads on our highly effective 12 step program...
The one that helps you manage this. Yea... that's the ticket.

In all seriousness though. Have fun, enjoy what you get, and just know it's a lot of fun. Like you I have a budget and the only real things I hate are that I wish I had more $$ to build more ARs faster. And more time to go shoot more, and to reload more.
 
Yet I cannot assemble such a beauty. No tools, and I am as mechanical as an old shoe. I will have to buy pre assembled for now. When the wallet agrees.
 
MachIVshooter said:
Yeah you can. For $450-$500, you can buy a very basic assembled carbine, or you can buy a stripped lower and a rifle kit that has Magpul grip, Magpul stock, free float Keymod or MLOK handguard and MBUS sights.
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I don't understand how I can save anything by spending $450-$500 for a very basic assembled carbine that's already available for $370, but if that's gun math, I'm OK with it.
 
v35 said:
I don't understand how I can save anything by spending $450-$500 for a very basic assembled carbine that's already available for $370, but if that's gun math, I'm OK with it.
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That link you provided is $399+ shipping, which we'll call $25. The transfer is moot, since the stripped lower will also require transfer. +$20 for MOE grip. +$35 for MOE Stock. +$130 minimum for a decent free float M-LOK or keymod handguard 13"-15" in length. +$60 for Mbus sights. +$20 minimum for low pro gas block.

So, not counting transfer, that basic carbine is up to $630 to be comparable to the PSA rifle kit.

The $420 free shipping PSA kit +$50 stripped lower with maybe $10 shipping + $10 magazine = $490

That's not gun math. It's just math.
 
Skylerbone said:
Well then how about a better stock and grip with keymod for $440. That just leaves a $20 rear flip-up sight, also available from CDNN. I still run my A2 with a rear or red dot and without problems with a scope. $460+ $15 shipping, + transfer fee. By the by, $14.99 is the shipping rate at CDNN.

Plenty of inexpensive complete ARs with no assembly required.
https://www.cdnnsports.com/delton-ar15-echo-316-556-nato-b5-system.html?___SID=U#.WbTMtbU8KEc
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Sure, if you want crap drop-in handguards on a carbine gas system. And you're still within $20 of the PSA kit I linked that has a lightweight middy barrel, which most anyone would consider preferable to an M4 tube.

We can go back and forth all day, but bottom line is you'll save at least $100 using PSA kits or uppers + lowers vs. buying a complete rifle with comparable furniture & upgrades. Part of it is that you're not paying the FET that you do on an assembled unit. The other part is that no one can complete with PSA for value. Economy of scale.
 
For a, to quote the OP, "range plinker and coyote killer" I don't see that gas system or fancy rails really matter. We could go round and round about whether he really ought to save up and buy a Smith or Colt, or Noveske because they're better, but if every dollar counts...
 
Skylerbone said:
For a, to quote the OP, "range plinker and coyote killer" I don't see that gas system or fancy rails really matter. We could go round and round about whether he really ought to save up and buy a Smith or Colt, or Noveske because they're better, but if every dollar counts...
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And therein lies the "value" component. He didn't say "budget" or "as cheap as possible". Didn't mention budget constraints whatsoever, in fact, although we may reasonably deduce from the OP that he doesn't want to spend a fortune. On that note, I don't see anyone suggesting he go out and buy a $1,500 rifle, but who in their right mind wouldn't want those upgrades when the cost difference is truly negligible? They're not of dubious utility; the Magpul bits are vastly superior in the ergonomics department for virtually everyone, and a free float tube not only looks better to most, but is functional in the accuracy and accessory department.

OP's decision of course, but why would one want to pay the FET and other premiums for an assembled rifle when they can get a good bit more for their money by pushing in two pins or doing some very simple assembly? You truly don't even need an armorer's wrench to assemble a lower, just a hammer, small punch and flat blade screwdriver. Heck, the vise is optional; I've loosened and locked down receiver extension nuts holding the thing between my knees with a magazine inserted.
 
MachIVshooter said:
And therein lies the "value" component. He didn't say "budget" or "as cheap as possible". Didn't mention budget constraints whatsoever, in fact, although we may reasonably deduce from the OP that he doesn't want to spend a fortune. On that note, I don't see anyone suggesting he go out and buy a $1,500 rifle, but who in their right mind wouldn't want those upgrades when the cost difference is truly negligible? They're not of dubious utility; the Magpul bits are vastly superior in the ergonomics department for virtually everyone, and a free float tube not only looks better to most, but is functional in the accuracy and accessory department.

OP's decision of course, but why would one want to pay the FET and other premiums for an assembled rifle when they can get a good bit more for their money by pushing in two pins or doing some very simple assembly? You truly don't even need an armorer's wrench to assemble a lower, just a hammer, small punch and flat blade screwdriver. Heck, the vise is optional; I've loosened and locked down receiver extension nuts holding the thing between my knees with a magazine inserted.
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The context of the OP's language sure led me to believe he is looking at lower cost alternatives.
 
And that would correct, as I was looking at spending just the $150 for the blem lower first, for the simple fact that the state hasn't given me a raise in 12 years and money ain't fallin' free...but I did buy a lottery ticket... ;)
Honestly, as much as I do know about some firearms, my knowledge on ARs is pretty thin, so I wouldn't know the difference on many items people say absolutely HAVE to be upgraded.
Sure, if you want crap drop-in handguards on a carbine gas system. And you're still within $20 of the PSA kit I linked that has a lightweight middy barrel, which most anyone would consider preferable to an M4 tube.
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Is there something wrong with a carbine gas system, and why is the "mid length" gas system so desirable? Why would an M4 barrel be a worse alternative? If it has Picatinny/1913 rails I could attach any vertical foregrip or flashlight attachment, why would I want an M-Lok or Keymod handguard? Not trying to sound like a jerk - I really don't know what the advantage is, and I've been using the Picatinney stuff for years.
Yes, every dollar counts, for certain. :) BTW, thank you guys very much for the information, much appreciated.
 
Armoredman, you're well aware there will be trade-offs on a tight budget and a single AR, regardless of budget, won't do everything "best".

I'm not here to argue which is best I'm simply presenting options, same as the rest. I've spent the last 21+ years as a lowly City lackie so I understand budget constraints.
 
armoredman said:
Honestly, as much as I do know about some firearms, my knowledge on ARs is pretty thin, so I wouldn't know the difference on many items people say absolutely HAVE to be upgraded.
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Nothing absolutely has to be, but I would wager that anyone who plays with a standard M-4gery and then something that's got nicer furniture is going to have a clear preference toward the latter. The options wouldn't exist if there weren't a huge market for those bits. Magpul didn't become what they are today from their initial creation.

armoredman said:
Is there something wrong with a carbine gas system, and why is the "mid length" gas system so desirable? Why would an M4 barrel be a worse alternative? If it has Picatinny/1913 rails I could attach any vertical foregrip or flashlight attachment, why would I want an M-Lok or Keymod handguard? Not trying to sound like a jerk - I really don't know what the advantage is, and I've been using the Picatinney stuff for years.
Yes, every dollar counts, for certain. :) BTW, thank you guys very much for the information, much appreciated.
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Carbine gas systems are more violent due to excessive dwell time, but more importantly, the M4 profile barrel adds unnecessary weight. Keymod or M-LOK handguards have become the standard because they allow the same attachment of accessories without the size, weight and cheese-grating penalty of quad rails. The 13.5" (or other length) free floated handguards are beneficial to accuracy and offer much more real estate for putting things like lights or forward grips wherever you want them, as well as magnifiers, night vision adapters, etc. There are direct mount systems or picatinny rail sections for keymod & M-LOK. Futhermore, the 13.5" handguard in the link I posted will offer more sight radius than an A2 front sight on a carbine gas system.
 
I just got into the AR fun. I bought a S&W Sport 2. Good warranty price right at $500 OTD.
I'd say get a bass pro card and buy either a Sport 2 or a Ruger 556. Make payments like you were saving up! Then you only pay a little interest for not having to wait!
 
Armored Man, the dirty secret is that AR's and their parts are now commodity items like desktop computer parts. Wholesalers like PSA, Bravo Co., Model 1, and so on, arrange with manufacturers such as DPMS, FN, etc. and others to make products to spec and for a certain price points. Some of the big names such as S&W produce a lot of their own stuff but still rely on companies like magpul to make stocks, etc. China has got into the act producing a lot of cheap accessories with the usual issue of workmanship and quality variance. When you go to buy a desktop computer, the name on the outside probably did little to actually manufacturer it aside from contracting parts, providing specifications, and perhaps assembling major subsystems. They deal with the marketing and technical support rather than the mfg. The ar market is now resembling that model for some sellers.

For the original poster--figure out what you want to do with it. A self defense carbine that is adequate for most functions can be had now assembled and tested for about $400-500 or so. Some sellers like Bud's Gun shop have layaway and payment over time so check if that is an option. Most of the parts and even complete uppers can be bought if what you want eventually changes to a factory build model that require minimal tools and skills. Even the lowly ATI will probably do just fine, and yes, carbines can be a bit more bouncy but nothing like heavy battle rifles. A heavier buffer or a M-16 bolt carrier can address a lot of the issues. The M-4 barrel is kind of a nuisance and I prefer SoCOM heavy barrels for 16 inch barrels but they all work.

Yes, there are some minor differences and you can end up with problems from building an AR with parts from different manufacturers or you may not. Factory made guns have a warranty that varies by manufacturer, parts may or may not have a warranty and likewise manufacturers vary in warranty support.

MachIVShooter presents a good case for PSA assemblage of parts kits which at least gives you one contact point for warranty issues. I personally do not care for PSA customer service nor shipping wait times while recognizing that they provide good value for what they do. Others do likewise so PSA is not the only game in town, I have gotten good experiences on one build by buying from Anderson Mfg. who sells direct. I have used Primary Arms for another build with a lot of the parts coming from Radical Arms with no problems. Likewise I have had good luck from Brownells and Midway. Have an AWB pre-Remington 90's era Bushmaster that works fine. Currently waiting on a flash hider for a mixmaster 6.8 SPC upper build which with tweaking on magazines should work fine.

AR's are not rocket science, a decent dependable rifle can be bought from most manufacturers and can be made with parts kits and usually work. You want to go high end, there are plenty of choices there, you want to go low end, the same. Aficionados argue over what is the "best" and who is the "best" seller just like on bolt actions, cars, etc. A chevy and a lincoln can get you to the same place but can vary over creature comforts, doo dads, and "style". AR's are a lot like that except it is difficult for most people to assemble a car from parts.

My personal opinion from what I have gathered from the O/P: Money is tight, not much desire to build a rifle nor tools to do so, you would like to spread out the purchase price over time, and you don't want to make the wrong choice. To that end, I would suggest buying a S&W Sport II or a Ruger AR-15 rifle on sale via a seller that does layaway. You could split up the payments, lock in the price (make sure the seller does that as most will but not all), and have a firearm that is satisfactory and warranteed by the manufacturer. S&W and Ruger have good reps for service and warranty which is also reflected in resale prices. Which leads to as you have an AR and experience, you might find yourself wanting specific features which can be addressed two ways--replacing parts or simply adding a new upper. A third way would be to sell your existing name brand rifle and acquire the parts/new rifle that fits your needs better. You won't get much interest in a parts built rifle and resale prices reflect that. That's my two cents and take the free advice for what it is worth.
 
MachIVshooter said:
Carbine gas systems are more violent due to excessive dwell time, but more importantly, the M4 profile barrel adds unnecessary weight. Keymod or M-LOK handguards have become the standard because they allow the same attachment of accessories without the size, weight and cheese-grating penalty of quad rails. The 13.5" (or other length) free floated handguards are beneficial to accuracy and offer much more real estate for putting things like lights or forward grips wherever you want them, as well as magnifiers, night vision adapters, etc. There are direct mount systems or picatinny rail sections for keymod & M-LOK. Futhermore, the 13.5" handguard in the link I posted will offer more sight radius than an A2 front sight on a carbine gas system.
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Actually, its reduced dwell time. Shorter tube shorter time. Then there is higher port pressure due to the port being closer to the chamber.

I am still on the fence about the true "necessity"of a free float rail. If I were on a serious budget, its the first thing I'd drop, unless I was after tack driving accuracy. And, tack driving accuracy is not typical of budget barrels. Better trigger first.
 
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lysanderxiii said:
Actually, its reduced dwell time. Shorter tube shorter time. Then there is higher port pressure due to the port being closer to the chamber.

.
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Negative. Dwell time is dictated by port to muzzle distance, which is 2" longer on a carbine system with identical barrel length. Correct on higher port pressure, which compounds with the dwell time, giving us an "over-gassed" system.
 
MachIVshooter said:
Negative. Dwell time is dictated by port to muzzle distance, which is 2" longer on a carbine system with identical barrel length. Correct on higher port pressure, which compounds with the dwell time, giving us an "over-gassed" system.
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"Dwell", properly defined in firearms design handbooks is: "[for gas operated weapons] the time between the uncovering of the gas port to the unlocking of the bolt."

I can't help if AR community have been using it wrong all these years.

But, you are correct that there is a longer period of time the gas system is pressurized. Although, that is less of a problem as most think as the AR system begins to vent pressure about 3/4 of the way through the piston stroke. So, the extra millisecond or two that the system is pressurized, just gets blown out the vent.
 
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PSA is a good way to measure other sales, as they offer a good value, and a very good value when they have true sales. They have a rifle kit and a couple of uppers on sale right now that are very attractive. It's also a good way to spread out the cash outlay. For those who want a whole rifle, the $400 to $450 complete AR is a good deal and hard to beat for an entry level rifle that will serve most people very well. No one knows what they want for sure until they shoot a few different variants. I like my basic middy AR with a Moe stock and Moe hand guard, but I know now I prefer a nice free float tube, and those are very attractively priced these days, especially when already on an upper on sale.

Here is a nice upper (Sans BCG & Charging handle) for $230 shipped. Later on (Next payday?) buy the BCG and charging handle. Then the $150 complete lower. Already have the lower? Either way, it spreads it out, and you end up with a nice AR that will serve you well.

I am sure they are other vendors who also have good products for a good price, but I am familiar with PSA and have used/own their products. I feel comfortable recommending their products (Other than their "budget" P-tac offerings) when they are on sale. I have a friend with P-Tac uppers who likes them, but for a modest price increase you can buy their better offerings.
 
Redfisher60 said:
I'd say get a bass pro card and buy either a Sport 2 or a Ruger 556. Make payments like you were saving up! Then you only pay a little interest for not having to wait!
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Yeah, they like a good credit rating before handing out cards. If someone stole my identity, they'd try to give it back.
Thank you for interesting information. It would be spread out a little longer than one payday to the next, same way as I've acquired many of my firearms, just thought of trying the lower/upper idea as a way to spread out the fun. Thank you for all the helpful replies!
 
armoredman said:
Yeah, they like a good credit rating before handing out cards. If someone stole my identity, they'd try to give it back.
Thank you for interesting information. It would be spread out a little longer than one payday to the next, same way as I've acquired many of my firearms, just thought of trying the lower/upper idea as a way to spread out the fun. Thank you for all the helpful replies!
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Now you just need to keep us posted with what you do. And how you like the results!

I'm sure you'll love your AR. And as I posted above, getting the lower and upper is just the beginning as I sit here wit a completed lower and 3/4 of the parts for the upper for my first build and the PSA AR I put together the route you're going.
 
boom boom said:
MachIVShooter presents a good case for PSA assemblage of parts kits which at least gives you one contact point for warranty issues. I personally do not care for PSA customer service nor shipping wait times while recognizing that they provide good value for what they do.
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I would venture that how you deal with the CSR affects the outcome tremendously. I've not had to call them many times, but when I have, I was polite and respectful, and they took good care of me, whether it was a problem with an order or a warranty issue. I just had an issue with a $299 PA-10 upper that suddenly stopped ejecting, which I diagnosed as a bolt problem, since it ran fine again with the BCG from my other PA-10 upper. They sent a return shipping label and RMA form for warranty replacement of the BCG right away.
 
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