The ups and downs of Gunbroker auctions...

Poper said:

Well, my auction to sell a 6" nickel Python went pretty well. Until the buyer says his FFL will not send or fax a copy of his FFL but requires I send him a copy of my local FFL's license instead. (Little alarm bells and red flags are flying high about now....)

I have exchanged a couple of emails with him and his last couple have been a little..... terse, shall we say? I received his payment (check) but my bank says 16 calendar days (12 business days) before they can be sure the check has actually cashed and cleared. He is not happy with this. 'Oh, well', thinks I. 'If this dude's check bounces within the next 11 days, I still have my gun and he has his rubber check.'

There ain't no way this side of Hades that I am shipping any gun without a guy's valid and verified FFL in my little hot hands!

Maybe I'm paranoid, but the more I think about it, the more my skin crawls....

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Shipping to an lgs in his area is not an option?

Poper said:

Not unless he is willing to provide a valid FFL for that LGS.

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I did not mean to imply that a valid ffl should not be present, I meant that if he doesn't want to give out his details, (why I don't understand) could he be persuaded to just have the gun shipped to the store AFTER giving you their info?

I have thought about selling on GB before. Being a non-ffl private seller the problems the op is having keeps me away from it. I wish you good luck and hopefully you can get this resolved. If you feel like something is amiss return his money and don't go through with it.

The onus is on the buyer to provide information for delivery to an FFL in the buyer's state. There's no other way to get a gun to someone in another state.

I've had some tough to deal with local FFLs, but in the end even the worst one was able to send a copy of his FFL to the seller I bought from.

I ship everything out of a local FFL. I have mine send a copy of their license to the receiving FFL.. Weird but some are way paranoid about sending out their license.

Tell him tough about letting the check clear. What is the huge urgency on his side. If he wanted it shipped fast he should have sent a Bank Check.

Poper said:

Until the buyer says his FFL will not send or fax a copy of his FFL but requires I send him a copy of my local FFL's license instead

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Why would he need your local FFL's paper (unless maybe as reassurance if your having your FFL ship the firearm for you)? In any case, if you have the address of the FFL he wants you to ship it to, why not just google the address, verify it's a legit FFL (easy enough), give them a call and ask them to email the FFL (like they've probably done hundreds of times before), and that's that? It's a sale so you shouldn't shy away from making a quick phone call or two to get your money. As long as the check clears, and you are doing things right, I wouldn't be too worried about it. Given you have both the check and the gun, your buyer should be way more worried about you. As an online seller of things myself (non-firearm related), too many people don't know how to talk to other people on the internet, even if there are no bad intentions. He might be as suspicious of you as you are of him.

Moparnut said:

I have thought about selling on GB before. Being a non-ffl private seller the problems the op is having keeps me away from it.

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Just list at a high, fixed price, and who knows, maybe someone will bite and you'll gain the experience. It certainly is a lot easier and less time consuming than looking for a buyer locally, and almost certainly a better return. I've been pretty happy the few times I've sold on gun broker. Never had an issue so far. But I just post as fixed price and don't pay attention to it, save for reducing the price perhaps by 5 or 10$ if it doesn't sell in a month.

I thought pistols had to be shipped FFL to FFL?

CaptTripps said:

I thought pistols had to be shipped FFL to FFL?

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No need, but sometimes it's the easiest option. Mainly because shipping a handgun is so bloody complicated. An FFL can ship a handgun USPS Priority Flat Rate for around 20$. Legally, you can't ship a handgun via USPS without an FFL. Private gun owners are supposed to use private couriers like Fedex or UPS, and they oblige you to use unmarked packages and overnight services (because they know that their own employees have horrible track records stealing their own packages when they have firearms). That means that UPS would want to bill you near 100$ to ship overnight the used Ruger LCP you just sold for 150$. So a lot of people ship via FFL's for that reason.

This is also why handgun shipping prices can be so varied and obscene on Gun Broker. Half the time shipping costs is the difference between overpaying and a hell of a deal. Shipping a Long Gun is a completely different story, in many cases.

Or, someone might suggest to simply ship via UPS or Fedex Ground for about 10-15$ and not say anything. I'm not sure about it, but I suspect that would be against company rules but (possibly/probably) not against the law. I'd be happy if someone would know enough to clear that up.

I guess it may vary state to state, but as far as I am aware that's the current state of affairs in Florida. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Poper said:

.....Until the buyer says his FFL will not send or fax a copy of his FFL but requires I send him a copy of my local FFL's license instead.

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Tell buyer to find another dealer to receive the Python.
I hate these "show me your FFL and then I'll show you my FFL" games. While ATF regs require the shipping dealer to have a copy of the receiving dealers FFL before shipping a firearm, there is no requirement for the shipping dealer to provide a copy in order to get a copy......that's just silly.

There is no requirement for the receiving dealer to provide a nonlicensee with a copy of his FFL. Typically the receiving dealer gives his first three and last five digits of his FFL# to a nonlicensee who can verify the FFL on EzCheck.

You didn't specify USPS money order, or certified check in the listing?

Poper said:

Interestingly, Gunbroker says under buyer instructions:

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I imagine thats just a liability, cover their asses, type of thing. It really isn't enforceable in any way, nor there would be a benefit to doing so. If you've got the balls to fake some FFL papers, might as well make up a signature while your at it. Like they say, after the first felony, the rest are free.

I have had great luck ( and some good buys) on Gun Broker. I haven't sold yet, however.

My LGS has no issue sending their FFL when handling my transfers, so the buyers FFL who is not willing to send a copy to a seller so the revolver can be received is weird...

Poper said:

I think it is more of a "Gunbroker rules" thing.

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Well a large part of rules are for liability. If it wasn't for the bad press it would receive, or possible liability, Ebay would sell guns and make a killing in fees. I say it from the point of view that when I have sold firearms on GB in the past (or bought, for that matter), I typically end up communicating via email after the sale, since it's more convenient for including attachments or simply for a more fluid conversation since it's what ones used to. Perhaps that may be against rules, but again, if it's a private email there isn't any way for Gun Broker to know or to pursue it. If Gun Broker does get better/bigger, I imagine they will bar all forms of communications outside GB (as well as make it very clear) just to avoid lost fees from transactions outside GB. Until then, I couldn't imagine why GB would invest resources in pursuing either issue. Buyers/sellers should be a lot more concerned with state/federal law (which is hard enough) then with GB rules.

Poper said:

the buyer says his FFL will not send or fax a copy of his FFL

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I still don't get why you don't just ask his FFL dirrectly. It would have taken care of this whole issue in one quick email. If he won't even give you a name or address, then that's a whole different issue.

If I were the Seller, and my buyer and/or his FFL was still refusing to provide me the FFL's info by close of business tomorrow (or whenever the OP/Seller states as a deadline)...I would return his check, as it sure seems he's trying to get this revolver by any means EXCEPT through an FFL, and I would post F- Negative feedback on him, with valid reasons why.

Sam

It is not a legal requirement for a private person to ship through an FFL . A copy of your DL is sufficient to register the sale in the receiving FFL's books. Some FFL's for whatever their reason will not take in a gun from an internet sales from a private person even though they take them in from private non FFL's every day in their store, and even though it is perfectly legal..

The non FFL seller however can not ship to a private person - that has to be done to an FFL, and the shipping entity will require to see a copy of the FFL to which the gun will be shipped to. So, you need the buyers FFL copy in order to ship. The FFL only needs a copy of the private sellers ID (typically the DL) for their acquisition book. That can be packaged in with the gun when shipped.

If the buyers FFL will not provide a copy of his FFL to a private non FFL seller, than tell your buyer to find a different FFL who will. It's up to the buyer to provide a transferring FFL.

If I am wrong - someone correct me. ( However what is stated in the terms of the auction can override this.)

mnrivrat said:

The non FFL seller however can not ship to a private person - that has to be done to an FFL

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Per "TTAG - Fact Check: Shipping Firearms": If it is within state lines, to a resident in your state, no FFL is legally required in most cases. Considering that it's simply a cost to the buyer, and that the buyer already expects to pay it anyways, I don't see many cases where I'd be willing to do it anyway, but like they say, "a right unused is a right lost" so it is something to be aware of. If it were to a friend or family and legal, I'd have no issues shipping directly. Not that it would apply in this case (I imagine), but the prior statement seemed to be in general.

I would tell him he can have them send their FFL or to find a different FFL. Not every shipper is an FFL themselves. The two reasons I can think of a shop being that uptight is:

1) They only accept shipments from other FFL's.
2) A firearm received needs to be logged in within 24 hours, if the sending FFL or individual didn't include their FFL or Drivers License, the clock is technically ticking before the receiving
FFL needs to send it back. My local shop has had transfers come in and not been able to get a hold of them on a holiday weekend/etc.

MillennialGunslinger said:

No need, but sometimes it's the easiest option. Mainly because shipping a handgun is so bloody complicated. An FFL can ship a handgun USPS Priority Flat Rate for around 20$. Legally, you can't ship a handgun via USPS without an FFL. Private gun owners are supposed to use private couriers like Fedex or UPS, and they oblige you to use unmarked packages and overnight services (because they know that their own employees have horrible track records stealing their own packages when they have firearms). That means that UPS would want to bill you near 100$ to ship overnight the used Ruger LCP you just sold for 150$. So a lot of people ship via FFL's for that reason.

This is also why handgun shipping prices can be so varied and obscene on Gun Broker. Half the time shipping costs is the difference between overpaying and a hell of a deal. Shipping a Long Gun is a completely different story, in many cases.

Or, someone might suggest to simply ship via UPS or Fedex Ground for about 10-15$ and not say anything. I'm not sure about it, but I suspect that would be against company rules but (possibly/probably) not against the law. I'd be happy if someone would know enough to clear that up.

I guess it may vary state to state, but as far as I am aware that's the current state of affairs in Florida. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

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One IS required by federal law to inform a shipping company that the package contains a firearm.

Sam