Gunbroker question

[NavyLCDR]

The seller can set the rules.

The seller sets the rules in all sales.
Always has, always will.

So, I buy a handgun for $600, send the $600 to the seller, they cash my check, and then call me the next day after my check clears and say, "Gee, I'm sorry. I thought I could drop that handgun in a priority mail flat rate box and mail it to your FFL for $20. I found out I can't do that and I have to pay $70 to FEDEX for overnight shipping, so you are going to have to pay me $50 more before I can ship your gun to your FFL."

And that is my responsibility as the buyer because I didn't contact the seller before I bid and ask them, "Hey, you know you can't just drop that handgun in the mail, right?"

I mean - that is exactly what you guys are saying in this case.

When you read the actual ad, were you clear on what he wanted?

It doesn't matter what the seller wanted. What matters is what the seller advertised were going to be the conditions of the sale. If a certain condition of the sale is not advertised, and it is not required by law, then it is the seller's responsibility to fulfill what was promised in his offer for sale. The OP is meeting all the requirements of law for the seller to ship the gun and is meeting all the requirements that were specified in the sale ad. That is ALL the buyer is responsible for doing.

I did suggest a call to the seller to try to clear up the perceived issue.
I guess you missed that part in your need to be right.

I didn't miss that part at all. I believe that the absolute biggest problem in this country is that people refuse to take responsibility for their own ignorance and always trying to make other people responsible for it. In this case, some people are suggesting that the buyer take on the responsibility for the seller's ignorance.

 

[larryh1108]

It doesn't matter what the seller wanted. What matters is what the seller advertised were going to be the conditions of the sale.

Correct, and without seeing the ad we really have no idea what was said.

As you know, there are 3 sides to every story. Side A, Side B and the truth. If we ever get to see the ad we can advise him better but as it sits, and with his response, I'm willing to bet there was something missed and it created a misunderstanding.

 

[12131]

Rules should be spelled out in advance, not after the fact.

 

[hellishot]

Originally Posted by hellishot
Thanks guys for the input.

It seems the burden to know the seller's policy was on me to ask in advance prior to bidding/buying. I chalk this as a learning experience.

According to WHOM?

I have a duty to protect myself thus burden on me (buyer). I should have been more thorough in my research. Once again, it's a learning experience that wasn't too costly, but not a mistake I will make again. I assumed the seller was going to be typical about FFL transfer (email or fax) and that's my fault for assuming.

How about common sense?
It's pretty cheap especially in a venue you are not familiar with.
caveat emptor has been around a long time.

Yikes. Anyways, I made a mistake and certainly feel bad about it. Sometimes people are new to the gunbroker scene and may not know the right question to ask or if a question should be asked. In my case, my inaction was a mistake and I admit it. I should have called instead of assuming he would take a faxed/email FFL.

 

[heeler]

I have bought a great many long guns and handguns off GB over the years and unless the shipping as well as if they take faxed or e-mailed ffl info is in writing in their product description I always ask them.
I think some of the biggest problems on sites like GB is at time the lack of information by seller or lack of questions by buyer.
I have nearly 40 transactions on GB and have never had one single issue and all transactions have been smooth.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I have a duty to protect myself thus burden on me (buyer). I should have been more thorough in my research. Once again, it's a learning experience that wasn't too costly, but not a mistake I will make again. I assumed the seller was going to be typical about FFL transfer (email or fax) and that's my fault for assuming.


Yikes. Anyways, I made a mistake and certainly feel bad about it. Sometimes people are new to the gunbroker scene and may not know the right question to ask or if a question should be asked. In my case, my inaction was a mistake and I admit it. I should have called instead of assuming he would take a faxed/email FFL.

I just don't see where you made any mistake at all. But, if you want to take responsibility for the seller's lack of communication skills or ignorance, more power to you.

 

[slowr1der]

I agree with the others. I don't see where you made a mistake either, and unless the seller had that specifically listed in the ad, I'd not be paying his $25 fee he is trying to scam you with.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Thanks guys for the input.

It seems the burden to know the seller's policy was on me to ask in advance prior to bidding/buying. I chalk this as a learning experience.

I disagree very strongly.

The conditions of the sale are either up front in the posting or he goes by the minimum required by law. End of story.

When a deal has been reached and payment exchanged, then the deal goes down as agreed in accordance with the law. Neither party has a "right" to unilaterally change the terms at this point or they are in breech of contract. Any changes must be agreed upon by both the buyer and the seller, if there are to be any.

If this person did not specify anything beyond what the laws say with respect to the sale of a firearm, then the conditions of the contract default to the minimum required by law.

If this person specifies additional terms beyond what the law says and the purchase is made under those conditions, then the conditions include the minimum required by law plus the additional terms.


If the seller is not willing to complete the sale under the terms specified at the time of the winning bid, then he is in breech of contract and it is within your rights to back out of the sale with your money refunded to you.

 

[hellishot]

I have bought a great many long guns and handguns off GB over the years and unless the shipping as well as if they take faxed or e-mailed ffl info is in writing in their product description I always ask them.
I think some of the biggest problems on sites like GB is at time the lack of information by seller or lack of questions by buyer.
I have nearly 40 transactions on GB and have never had one single issue and all transactions have been smooth.

My situation was that there was lack of info on sellers part regarding ffl, and I didn't ask like heeler said. I understand that people might suspect the guy might be pulling a fast one, but I didn't interpret it as that.

My early post I made myself sound like an absolutist by saying, "It seems the burden to know the seller's policy was on me to ask in advance prior to bidding/buying." However, that comment rang true to my situation and I recognize it might not be applicable to all transactions. I should have known better than to complete a transaction w/vague details.

I agree with the others. I don't see where you made a mistake either, and unless the seller had that specifically listed in the ad, I'd not be paying his $25 fee he is trying to scam you with

Plus, there are some information I left out due to privacy concerns which might make it appear that I was scrammed. Tried my best to list relevant info regarding my situation in my original post. Anyways thanks for the concern gentlemen and the inputs.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

My situation was that there was lack of info on sellers part regarding ffl, and I didn't ask like heeler said. I understand that people might suspect the guy might be pulling a fast one, but I didn't interpret it as that.

As the buyer, you are only contractually obligated to the terms of the sale as they existed at the time you had the winning bid.

IF, however, there are proposed changes which you believe to be reasonable based on whatever you see the circumstances to be, then you can agree to those changes if you wish. This is a matter of personal choice and certainly none of us should gainsay you on this.

In the end, if both parties are satisfied and happy with the terms at the time of the exchange, then the transaction is a good one. It does not matter what any other person my think as they armchair-quarterback the transaction.

 

[larryh1108]

The pettiness here amazes me.

You have many state that you only need to do what is minimally required by law to complete the sale. This is a Gunbroker deal, you are not buying a house.

So, you buy the gun and the seller asks for a signed FFL to ship. YOu get your undies in a bunch because he didn't state that in the ad. By law, you aren't required to. So you want to be a hard azz and refuse to send it. The seller then says you can opt to have it come from his FFL for an additional $25. You cry fraud and in your stubborn, hardazz approach you tell him to pound sand.

Your options:
1) Demand a refund. I'd laugh at you if I was the seller. Just mail the signed FFL.
2) Take him to court. Yeah, right. If you mailed the signed FFL you'd have you gun almost shot out before you get to court, not counting the court costs.
3) Call the local PD. Yeah, they'd laugh at you. I know I would.
4) Send the signed FFL as requested, get your gun and move on.

I just don't get those who are so tough that they refuse to budge an inch. The minimum the law requires? Yeah, ok. Whatever.

What does it get you on a sale like this? You get to prove you are a tough buyer? Please.
Grown up.
Get rid of some testosterone.

 

[Captcurt]

Easy fix.

Even though the seller is at fault here, the easiest solution is to mail him a FFL signed in ink. I would rather pay my local dealer for the license than the seller in this case.

Or you can op out.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The pettiness here amazes me.

You have many state that you only need to do what is minimally required by law to complete the sale. This is a Gunbroker deal, you are not buying a house.

So, you buy the gun and the seller asks for a signed FFL to ship. YOu get your undies in a bunch because he didn't state that in the ad. By law, you aren't required to. So you want to be a hard azz and refuse to send it. The seller then says you can opt to have it come from his FFL for an additional $25. You cry fraud and in your stubborn, hardazz approach you tell him to pound sand.

Your options:
1) Demand a refund. I'd laugh at you if I was the seller. Just mail the signed FFL.
2) Take him to court. Yeah, right. If you mailed the signed FFL you'd have you gun almost shot out before you get to court, not counting the court costs.
3) Call the local PD. Yeah, they'd laugh at you. I know I would.
4) Send the signed FFL as requested, get your gun and move on.

I just don't get those who are so tough that they refuse to budge an inch. The minimum the law requires? Yeah, ok. Whatever.

What does it get you on a sale like this? You get to prove you are a tough buyer? Please.
Grown up.
Get rid of some testosterone.

In all of that you are failing in one point - it isn't the buyer's FFL to provide - it is the dealer's FFL. It is the dealer that decides which method to deliver the copy of the FFL - not the buyer. Thank you for your entertaining rant.

 

[dogtown tom]

NavyLCDR

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryh1108 View Post
The pettiness here amazes me.

You have many state that you only need to do what is minimally required by law to complete the sale. This is a Gunbroker deal, you are not buying a house.

So, you buy the gun and the seller asks for a signed FFL to ship. YOu get your undies in a bunch because he didn't state that in the ad. By law, you aren't required to. So you want to be a hard azz and refuse to send it. The seller then says you can opt to have it come from his FFL for an additional $25. You cry fraud and in your stubborn, hardazz approach you tell him to pound sand.

Your options:
1) Demand a refund. I'd laugh at you if I was the seller. Just mail the signed FFL.
2) Take him to court. Yeah, right. If you mailed the signed FFL you'd have you gun almost shot out before you get to court, not counting the court costs.
3) Call the local PD. Yeah, they'd laugh at you. I know I would.
4) Send the signed FFL as requested, get your gun and move on.

I just don't get those who are so tough that they refuse to budge an inch. The minimum the law requires? Yeah, ok. Whatever.

What does it get you on a sale like this? You get to prove you are a tough buyer? Please.
Grown up.
Get rid of some testosterone.

In all of that you are failing in one point - it isn't the buyer's FFL to provide - it is the dealer's FFL. It is the dealer that decides which method to deliver the copy of the FFL - not the buyer. Thank you for your entertaining rant.

+1
I suppose if Larry won an auction and the seller asked him to send pictures of himself wearing a dress...........larry would comply.

 

[larryh1108]

You guys just don't get it.
The intelligence here is great.
Your opinions I've always respected a lot.
The experience is second to none.
But I am baffled at the making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Some years back, a signed (in blue ink if I am not mistaken) original copy of an FFL was required to ship. That was changed a few years back with a note from the BATF. 5 or 6 years ago I was using an old, cranky FFL to do transfers and he would only accept the original, signed FFL mailed before they'd do the transfer. Yeah, it took some extra time. Yeah, a lot of the sending FFLs got cranky but they did it anyways because that used to be the way it was done. What was the big deal? What IS the big deal?

Rant? Yeak, ok, if me laughing at your stubborness and having to have control of all aspects of the sale is a rant, then fine. Rant it is. I'm laughing at how some people just say that they will do the minimum required by law and not one iota more because they don't have to. Yeah, control freaks is all that comes to mind. The guy wants a signed FFL to feel good and maybe he's 80 years old and always got one before and you guys act like he reneged on the deal, tried to pull a fast one, misrepresented his ad and/or is trying to milk more money out of the buyer. Yep, you're right. You call the shots. You're the man. You're the one who dictates how it goes and you will raise holy heck if you don't get it your way. Your way is the only way because the law says that's all you have to do so that's all you will do. Sounds like some real, nice guys.

It seems like I was wrong at how my perception of you guys was. I'm never to old to learn I am not always right. Perceptions are not always right.

And Dogtown Tom? You're in retail. The next time you do what a customer asks, just because, remember to put on your dress. After all, why do anything more than the minimum you are required to satisfy a customer, right? That's a good way to run a business. I hope you train your staff to do the same thing... the bare minimum.

 

[Field Tester]

I don't think he's trying to bilk you out of $25 at all. I just think he failed to list all the requirements and details.

If nothing was stated about an ink signature then it's his responsibility to find a work around.
So now he's provided a work around that costs an additional $25. That's great! But why should you foot the bill?

Other transactions don't require all this extra work, why should yours?

This is how a transaction should go. You view a product, read the details, fulfill the requirements on your side to receive the product and then pay. If someone fails to list THEIR requirements then they need to be the one to find a work around and pay.
There should be no extra time, effort, or money required on your part beyond purchase and pick up.

Now if you were buying brass and all it said was "Brass For Sale!" and you failed to find out the priming method or caliber and were upset then that's on you.

However if the person wants to package it a certain way and that's the only way they'll ship it why are you required to find that out before hand? There would be no way of you knowing that requirement before hand and it's beyond reason for you to know to email about that specific detail.

 

[NavyLCDR]

You guys just don't get it.

Just because we have a different opinion than yours which quite a few people have posted that they consider to be equally as valid as yours?

 

[larryh1108]

Yep, that confirms it.
You don't get it.

Your answer is "because you said so. It's the law."
My answer is "what's the big deal? Send him what he asked for."

Opinions differ. That's fine. That's life.

 

[RPRNY]

My answer is "what's the big deal? Send him what he asked for."

I guess I didn't see the post where the OP explained he is an FFL either.

 

[larryh1108]

If he is mailing it to an FFL, doesn't he need to verify it is an FFL?
Wouldn't a signed original satisfy that requirement?
Is it a law that you can't send one to a private party?

What could a private party do with a signed FFL?
Doesn't it have the name and address of the licensee?
Doesn't it contain the FFL# which can be used to look up the validity?
What harm would there be in just mailing a private party a signed FFL?

I'm sorry, because you don't want to isn't a good enough reason, for me. Many have
said they won't because they don't have to but no one gave a valid reason why other
than they don't have to. That is my whole "debate" here. What is the big deal?

It was done that way for many years as the way to do business. Now it's so secret that
you won't waste the postage to mail it for a customer? No wonder there are so many
threads about how bad a lot of dealers are and how they really don't want your
business, only your money. As Dogtown Tom said above, why do more than the minimum
to EARN someone's business. It's your shop, you'll do it your way because you can.

 

[dogtown tom]

larryh1108....But I am baffled at the making a mountain out of a mole hill.

I'm sure you are. If you are a dealer you wouldn't be.

.....And Dogtown Tom? You're in retail. The next time you do what a customer asks, just because, remember to put on your dress.

Helping a customer with a special request has nothing to do with this thread. If you think it does you didn't read it.

After all, why do anything more than the minimum you are required to satisfy a customer, right?

Your attempt to draw an analogy is 180 degrees off. This thread is about a SELLER placing additional demands on the BUYER......those requirements not being mentioned in the auction. I'm sure my customers are quite happy that I don't demand DNA, fingerprints, or stool samples after they fill out their 4473.

That's a good way to run a business. I hope you train your staff to do the same thing... the bare minimum.

Sorry, I am the "staff". Do a search on this or other forums and you see that I have a stellar reputation. And I guess I'm proud that I don't require my customers to bring anything that ATF doesn't require....."the bare minimum". I'll happily settle for their drivers license and Texas CHL.

 

[larryh1108]

The seller asked for a mailed copy of his FFL.
Wow, end of the world.
Who would think such a demand would be so much trouble.

This thread is about a SELLER placing additional demands on the BUYER......those requirements not being mentioned in the auction.

Yeah, I got that.
Did you get the "additional demands" was asking for a signed/mailed copy of the FFL?
Preposterous, I know. So much trouble. The extra expense alone is reason to cancel the deal.

I believe your reputation is stellar.
I never doubted that.
I guess everyone who uses your services knows your rules.
No surprises.

 

[dogtown tom]

larryh1108 If he is mailing it to an FFL, doesn't he need to verify it is an FFL?

Seller can do that without a copy of the FFL via ATF FFL EzCheck.

Wouldn't a signed original satisfy that requirement?
Is it a law that you can't send one to a private party?

ATF is pretty darn clear that dealers do not have to provide a copy of their FfL to a nonlicensee. If you were a dealer you would know that.

What could a private party do with a signed FFL?

Forge it and use it to defraud buyers.

Doesn't it have the name and address of the licensee?
Doesn't it contain the FFL# which can be used to look up the validity?
What harm would there be in just mailing a private party a signed FFL?

Get your FFL and you'll find out.

As Dogtown Tom said above, why do more than the minimum
to EARN someone's business.

That's simply not true Larry, I said nothing of the sort. If you need to tell an outright lie to argue your point that's pretty pathetic.

It's your shop, you'll do it your way because you can.

True.

 

[dogtown tom]

Hey OP!!!!!
Your seller wouldn't happen to be from Litchfield, Connecticut would he?

 

[larryh1108]

lol, I wish we had a good one here.

*One guy won't do anything unless is has tactical attached to it.
*Another guy is in his 70s and sometimes forgets to open shop (not kidding)
*Another is by appt only but works 2 jobs and is available one or two nights a week, if that.
*Another guy (who just closed) did mainly transfers but charged $50+ when everyone else is $35.
*Another is open from 4p-7p except when he closes early or opens late.

There is a shortage of good FFLs up here though Hoffmans is as good a gun store as any I've ever seen. It's an hour away but their transfer fees are a little high however, they have such a huge selection, if you buy new they can't be beat. Used is another story and I like used over new.

Yes, I know what an FFL license looks like, contains, etc. My questions were tongue-in-cheek. If a regular customer of yours asked you to mail an old guy a signed copy of your FFL, even with all the other options available, and you said no, you'd deserve to lose his business. Some old timers don't have faxes, don't use email and have no use for computers. Their grand kid may have listed an ad for them and they "always" asked for and got a signed FFL before they shipped. Some old timers are just that and don't care about the new way of doing things. It is not a big deal to print the FFL, sign it and drop it in the mail. The fact that you won't do it because you don't have to led to the doing the minimum required for your customers comment. That's how it came across. It does not make sense to me. Sorry.