Gunbroker question

[hellishot]

I recently bought a gun through gunbroker. I sent in my payment with a personal check to pay for the gun and shipping cost, which the seller receives. The seller emails me to verify that he received the check and ask me to send a signed-in-ink copy of my local dealer's Federal Firearms License in order to ship the gun. I tell him that all my dealers in my area will typically fax their FFL to other FFLs but not mail their information.

He proceeds to tell me that he can utilize the services of a local FFL dealer for the transfer and ask for an additional $25.00. Is this right?

His posting did not mention about sending a signed-in-ink copy of FFL, it was vague. I've done a couple of gunbroker transactions and the FFLs are typically faxed over. I assumed he would accept a faxed FFL. I'm not sure if he is taking advantage of me or if I am in the wrong for not asking him about his FFL transfer policy? The seller has over 150 gunbroker transactions, so I just can't see him apply this policy to all his customers.

 

[Russian Hammer]

I've sold lots of guns on gunbroker and had lots of guns shipped from FFLs and it has always been through email or fax, never heard of that before. Sounds like he's trying to get an extra $25 out of you

 

[medalguy]

Same here. All the FFL needs to do is send his FFL number, and the seller can use EZCheck to be sure the recipient is properly licensed. Seller only needs to have a copy of the FFL.

 

[rswartsell]

He has the right to insist on the signed in ink copy. It is a poorly informed CYA on his part to do so. My FFL e-mails PDFs and faxes all the time. The whole pay him for your transfer thing smells a bit like fish. Your FFL can send the "wet" ink copy deal and the difference is time. No way do I pay the seller to arrange my transfer. I have like 16 gunbroker transactions. You have a right to bitch about him not advertising the need for a "wet" ink signature. He has no right to run the transfer on your end.

It is just like that.

 

[RPRNY]

Never had a seller require a "signed in ink" copy. What does he propose his local FFL will do exactly? Accept your FFL's scanned/faxed copy? That seems well out of order, but you are in a bind. He has your gun and your money. You can cancel your check if he hasn't cashed it but then you have no gun and likely negative feedback on GB.

That's over the barrel, friend. I'd try one more time making the case that a faxed or scanned copy of the receiving FFL is all that's required. If he doesn't fold, you're out another $25 and you leave feedback to the effect that the transaction was a bad experience and you would not recommend doing business with him.

 

[larryh1108]

He proceeds to tell me that he can utilize the services of a local FFL dealer for the transfer and ask for an additional $25.00. Is this right?

It sounds like this is a private seller and is not an FFL. He said he could use an FFL for an extra $25, which sounds like his cost.

He may believe he needs a signed copy for his records. He may have read that somewhere and I believe that used to be true until they changed it to accept electronic copies. Maybe your FFL can email him a copy? Does your FFL know it's coming from a private party? In CT it is illegal for a handgun to be shipped from someone not an FFL and many FFLs have their own policy to not accept transfers from private parties and if they do, they need proof of the sender (govt issued ID, state permit, etc.) It's not as bleak as it sounds and may be due to the seller being too cautious. Try to call him to find out what is really going on. I bet its easily fixed. BTW, I am a seller on GB and meet a lot of people who are confused.

 

[NavyLCDR]

He has the right to insist on the signed in ink copy.

Not after he accepted payment, unless it is specified as a condition of the sale before the transaction was completed. He is only entitled to the minimum requirements of law required to complete the transaction - or anything above and beyond that IF and ONLY IF it was agreed to prior to the completion of the transaction. Can't change the terms of the sale after the sale was complete.

and if they do, they need proof of the sender (govt issued ID, state permit, etc.)

No, they don't. At least there is no such requirement in Federal law. I, personally, would not have an issue sending a copy of identification with the gun, but it is not required by Federal law. A simple piece of paper with the name and address of the sender is all the FFL legally needs in order to record the information in his bound book (and that piece of paper can even be just the return address label). There is no requirement in Federal law for him to VERIFY the identity of the sender/seller.

Never had a seller require a "signed in ink" copy. What does he propose his local FFL will do exactly? Accept your FFL's scanned/faxed copy? That seems well out of order, but you are in a bind. He has your gun and your money. You can cancel your check if he hasn't cashed it but then you have no gun and likely negative feedback on GB.

That's over the barrel, friend. I'd try one more time making the case that a faxed or scanned copy of the receiving FFL is all that's required. If he doesn't fold, you're out another $25 and you leave feedback to the effect that the transaction was a bad experience and you would not recommend doing business with him.

Or he file a court claim against the seller and require the seller to fulfill the initial conditions of the sale or refund his money in full with no negative consequences. The buyer could probably also file a complaint with gunbroker that the seller did not fulfill the conditions of sale by delivering the firearm when provided with everything legally required to do so.

 

[Sniper66]

Sounds like he is adding requirements as he goes. I've sent my guy's FFL license in 3 ways...a signed copy by mail with my check, a faxed copy, and an emailed copy. All are valid. And never has a seller charged for that. My FFL charges me $20 for the transfer fee, which is totally legitimate. Your seller sounds like he's trying to make a few extra bucks or he is new at this and doesn't quite know the rules.

 

[larryh1108]

...and many FFLs have their own policy to not accept transfers from private parties and if they do, they need proof of the sender (govt issued ID, state permit, etc.)

I think you mistook my statement as saying it was a law.

However, with no identification of the person sending/selling it, who does the FFL log it in as incoming from?

 

[NavyLCDR]

I think you mistook my statement as saying it was a law.

However, with no identification of the person sending/selling it, who does the FFL log it in as incoming from?

The person listed on the return address label.

 

[larryh1108]

Yeah, ok.

 

[newfalguy101]

The person listed on the return address label.

Yup, have done this more than once.




To the OP, have YOUR FFL send the seller either an e-mail copy of his license, or send enough of the FFL numbers along with a link to the ATF ez-check website so he ( the seller) can confirm he is shipping to a dealer, ( Oh and be sure to ask your guy if he accepts from non-licensee's )

 

[hellishot]

Thanks guys for the input.

It seems the burden to know the seller's policy was on me to ask in advance prior to bidding/buying. I chalk this as a learning experience.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Thanks guys for the input.

It seems the burden to know the seller's policy was on me to ask in advance prior to bidding/buying. I chalk this as a learning experience.

According to WHOM?

 

[larryh1108]

How about common sense?
It's pretty cheap especially in a venue you are not familiar with.
caveat emptor has been around a long time.

 

[NavyLCDR]

How about common sense?
It's pretty cheap especially in a venue you are not familiar with.
caveat emptor has been around a long time.

Why would it be common sense to ask if there were any additional conditions of sale and delivery above and beyond what the law requires that were not listed in the original sale ad?

 

[Field Tester]

This.
If it wasn't spelled out and it's above and beyond the requirements of the law then the seller is out of line.
OP, you are not in the wrong to push the issue.

 

[larryh1108]

I'm sorry. Did I miss the link to the actual auction? The OP stated it was kinda vague.

His posting did not mention about sending a signed-in-ink copy of FFL, it was vague.

Remember, it appears the ad was from a private party, not an FFL When I purchased a gun from a private party I asked, before I bid, about how the transfer is handled to make sure he and I were on the same page. The seller doesn't do this for a living.

He proceeds to tell me that he can utilize the services of a local FFL dealer for the transfer and ask for an additional $25.00.

The seller is not demanding an additional $25. He's saying that if you want it sent from an FFL then the cost rises. Without seeing the ad we're all guessing about what is going on.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Remember, it appears the ad was from a private party, not an FFL When I purchased a gun from a private party I asked, before I bid, about how the transfer is handled to make sure he and I were on the same page. The seller doesn't do this for a living.

In other words, you believe that the buyer should take responsibility for the seller's ignorance. If the seller is not aware of the minimum legal requirements for the transfer of the firearm, then it is the buyer's responsibility or "common sense" to find out what the seller will require above and beyond the minimum legal requirements because the seller may not have enough knowledge or foresight to post additional requirements in their ad?

If that is the case, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[larryh1108]

Yeah, we can agree to disagree.

The seller sets the rules in all sales.
Always has, always will.

When you read the actual ad, were you clear on what he wanted?

I did suggest a call to the seller to try to clear up the perceived issue.
I guess you missed that part in your need to be right.

 

[Elkins45]

1. Seller can't change terms not spelled out initially, with the exception that he must be able to correct mistakes that would be illegal.

2. Buyer has already sent $, so is over a barrel.

3. A phone call (or even a link to this thread) might clear this all up.

My experience is that many perceived problems thru email can be cleared up thru 5 minutes of talk.

 

[Bubbles]

If the seller is not a licensee then the buyer's transfer FFL will very likely tell the seller to pound sand; non-licensees are not given copies of FFL's for a variety of reasons, never mind a wet-ink signed copy of one. All that the non-licensee seller needs is the first 3 and last 5 of the transfer dealer's license number so that the seller can use EzCheck to verify the license.

If the seller wanted an additional fee to have the gun transferred from an FFL on his end, then that should have been disclosed in the auction listing.

A very small number of old-school luddite FFL's still demand wet-ink signed hard copies of licenses before shipping. I have encountered two in the last six years. The rest are satisified with faxes or email w/ PDF attachment.

 

[Kp321]

The seller can set the rules. By the way, what is wrong with spending $.50 and mailing a hard copy of the FFL? As an FFL holder, I see no problem with doing that. Do it all the time.

 

[dogtown tom]

Kp321 The seller can set the rules.

if you read the entire thread you'll see that the seller changed the rules AFTER receiving payment.

By the way, what is wrong with spending $.50 and mailing a hard copy of the FFL? As an FFL holder, I see no problem with doing that. Do it all the time.

1. Because its not required by any Federal law or ATF regulation.
2. Email or faxed FFL's are as valid for licensees as an ink signed.
3. Seller is a nonlicensee and only needs to verify the dealers FFL on EzCheck.
4. Seller is adding or changing rules after the auction ends.....whose to say he won't reject that ink signed FFL because the dealer signed in blue ink instead of purple?
5. Fifty cents for the stamp ISN'T the problem. It's the time and annoyance caused by a moron. If you are happy mailing your FFL in lieu of email/fax than knock yourself out.........but you are in a very small minority of licensed dealers who think its no big deal.
6. Mailing an FFL adds days to the transaction....few of my customers want the deal to drag out another week.

 

[Ryanxia]

While this should have been made clear in big bold letters as some FFL's won't just hand out copies of their FFL but will say give me the fax # and I'll send it, I know some people want this because some pain in the butt FFL's won't accept mail transfers from non FFL's.