44 May Be Special. But it Ain't for Defense!

Jim NE said:

Maybe you should send that note to the ammunition industry, which has been consistently conveying these numbers to the public for years. Then you can argue with them about it.

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Coincidentally, I did just that. In fact I used to hunt with an engineer for one of the larger ammo makers. His particular choice in handguns for wild boar was a 4" S&W model 58 he had converted to .45 Colt. His load of choice was a 260 gr Keith bullet at just under 1000 fps - everything he shot fell down on the spot (but then he was a good shot).

So I asked him why ammo companies listed energy figures since he obviously got that a load that pushed around 500 flt lbs worked better (inside 100 yards) than one that carried 900 to 1500 ft. lbs (like a .223 or 220 Swift).

He told me I did not know the purpose of factory ammunition, which sort of took me aback, and I asked if that did not depend on what one wanted to do with the ammo.

He said no, the purpose of factory ammunition was to generate revenue for the factory He then said, if everyone knew the simple truth that bigger is better (especially in handguns) that the factories could not make and sell hundreds of different cartridges.

I still believe that there are different purposes even in factory ammo but I do see his point - confusion sells more ammo.

I've also had this discussion with a couple of actual rocket scientists. The initial reaction I get is: "Well duh, of course kinetic energy has nothing to do with damage - it is about heat." Come to think on it even my college Physical Science book says the same thing in no uncertain terms: "In a collision momentum does the damage." One of those guys wrote a book on ballistics (and also wrote the ballistic programs for many NASA missions) - his book runs about $400 today but fortunately I got mine for free). In it he explains the net effect of the K.E. in shooting a sizeable target with a 30-06 would be to raise the temperature of the target by about 1 degree.

Another friend, a surgeon and a former rocket scientist and also a shooter explains that you can introduce the same amount of K.E. to your body that a .357 Magnum would by simple eating 11 mini gummy bears - K.E. converts directly to calories mathematically (of course there is the matter of the time of the event).

So, back down to earth - what matters is placement, adequate penetration and then the size of the hole. There is not enough power in anything that is portable to make up for poor shot placement.

Onward

Jim H.

Now days I carry a 44 special more than anything else. I carry a Charter Arms Classic Bulldog most of the time because it is light and handy. I am not worried about people as much as deer in my fields and the Bulldog has proven useful inside 40 yards.

Jim Higginbotham said:

...a 4" S&W model 58 he had converted to .45 Colt.

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<thread drift>
Blasphemy!
</thread drift>

The "fo-fo especial" is a phenomenal epic manstopping fight stopper. It starts off as big as a 20mm expanded, and can knock a brontosaurus down with one clean hit to the nads.

There's no replacement for displacement, and the .44 displaces the universe with each pull of the trigger. Europellet beware!!

USBP379 said:

Would you bet your life on something like the SIG factory load? From multiple chrono reports this ammo is only running 650-700fps from a 3in barrel. And while this load appears to penetrate in gel I question whether or not something this slow will penetrate bone at all.

Remember there were accounts of the old slow lead 38SPL loads bouncing off windshields and even skulls when hitting at oblique angles. I just can't see the SIG crunching through ribs or getting through a forearm that's held in front of a chest. It makes me wonder what SIG's goal is with this load.

With that said, SIG has hired talent from across the industry for their new ammo. They should know what they're doing.

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Just curious, how does that compare to the Winchester Silver Tip or the Speer 200gr load?

USBP379 said:

This kind of stuff from a moderator? Wow.

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I had the same reaction.......

I wouldn't like to be shot with any of them.

Love the wadcutters! HP's pretty much turn into WC's after they hit clothing first.

USBP379 said:

The Gold Dot runs 750fps from a 3in barrel and penetrates 14in after passing through heavy clothing. It expands to nearly .60in too.

I don't know how the Silvertip works. I can't find any to test.

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FWIW Blazer GDs averaged 868 fps through my 3" Bridgeport, although being sticky on extraction due to the aluminum cases. I'm looking for the brass cased loading now.

Jim NE said:

Maybe you should send that note to the ammunition industry, which has been consistently conveying these numbers to the public for years. Then you can argue with them about it.

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Only momentum is conserved in a collision. Kinetic energy is not. I am of the opinion that what we the shooting community have been taught by the Gun Industry is primarily pseudo science designed to increase sales. Our teachers, Gun writers, are shills for the industry. Kinetic energy is easy to increase, just increase cartridge pressure and that pushes the bullet faster. KE increases by the square of the velocity, momentum is mass times velocity. It is much harder to increase momentum, and thus, harder to make claims of lethality improvements based on momentum increases. I remember decades of Gunwriter nonsense, about the minimum KE necessary to kill a deer, a moose, etc. It was all pseudo science generated by Corporate Marketing bureaus. Also it was great for industry profits.

I think Dr Martin Fackler is on the right track, a very simplistic summary of his work is that the biggest through hole is the best. This is worth reading: http://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html If I have Dr Fackler right, if somethings lives and breathes, if you make it bleed enough, it will stop breathing, and thus, stop living. This is a revolutionary concept that will put all that KE nonsense on the ash heap of history. The advertising industry is however, extremely flexible, and will come up with new nonsense that we will accept, and spend our money supporting.

I thought this discussion was over weeks ago. The only reason I brought up this issue was that someone made the claim (way back in the thread) that all muzzle energy results under 500 ft. pounds are irrelevant. They make no difference at all, whether 200 ft./lb's or 450 ft./lb.s.

For me to believe this, I by default, have to believe (to some degree) that there is no difference in terminal performance between a .36 caliber black powder revolver and a hot .38 Special load. I can't believe this, because logic, reason and experience won't allow me to. In fact, to extrapolate that claim as stated literally, there would be no difference between a hot .38 Special load and the same size projectile shot out of a slingshot. But everyone who wants to believe this is perfectly welcome to. I am not saying that ME is an ideal metric, but until they come up with a better metric, it does convey some information that may be of use.

I admit my ignorance. My uneducated outlook is based on decades of hunting and plinking. My experience is that big heavy bullets generally seem to mess things up more than small light bullets. So in my state of ignorance (Texas), I feel comfortable with something like a 45acp, 45colt, or 44special for SD. I may be wrong, but that's how I feel.

Jim NE said:

The only reason I brought up this issue was that someone made the claim (way back in the thread) that all muzzle energy results under 500 ft. pounds are irrelevant. They make no difference at all, whether 200 ft./lb's or 450 ft./lb.s.

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Energy is meaningless, momentum is not.
Momentum is conserved
Energy is not.
You are attributing the effects of momentum to energy.

Consider if you will the velocity of the old cap & ball .44 revolvers then consider how many civil war era soldiers carried them as "back up." Fortunately I have absolutely no experience with shooting people. All I can go by is the observations of those that have. One observation came from a guy that went from France into Germany in the 40's that went something in the order of the whole idea is let in a lot of air and let out a lot of blood. Somehow it just seems to me that a hunk of metal 11/25th of an inch is capable of doing exactly that.

I have several .357 Mag in both SA and DA/SA actions and a 158 gr bullet go thought a can 2x4 at an angle and hit a door hinge and still hurt someone. How do I know, it happened to my son.
Therefor, I don't use anything but 158 gr LSWC in the home.