.44 special 255 gr hard cast enough for woods carry?

[brutus51]

Basically the only time I'm carrying is when Grouse hunting with a 20 gauge loaded with #8 shot. That would really piss off a bear wanting to make a snack of me or my Springer. Could just hunt with a 12 gauge but their probably wouldn't be much grouse left.

 

[MaxP]

I find these threads interesting too. I see the "badge of manliness" being linked to carrying gigantic revolvers and somehow equating the protection of ones self from black bears with shooting cattle on a ranch in Texas.

I also find it interesting that from the time this continent was settled until the early 20th century, when folks in the woods were far more likely to be attacked by bears (since there were more of them), they somehow survived carrying muzzleloaders and revolvers chambered "only" in 38-40, 44-40 and 45 Colt's.

And then there's the irony that some of todays manly handguns and their cartridges for which they are chambered, are the rough equivalent of some of the old black powder rifle/carbine cartridges, you know, those old cartridges that have been deemed obsolete for over a century?

A .40 caliber 190-200 gr. hard cast bullet @ 1200+ fps- a 10mm Auto or a 38 WCF loaded with black powder and fired from a 130+ year old rifle, take your pick.

A .45 caliber 300 gr. bullet @ 1600 fps can be had in the 454 Casull or the 45-70 Trapdoor, take your pick.

A .50 caliber 435 gr. bullet @ 1300 fps can be had in a .500 Linebaugh, or if you want to step up a bit in power, grab an old 1866 Springfield chambered in 50-70 whose BP load propelled a .50 caliber, 425 gr. bullet well over 1400 fps.

If a man shoots a .44 Special well, will another 200 fps from a magnum really help him when a bear is on top of him?

35W

Badge of manliness. So that’s your takeaway. It’s actually a logical test before plunking down five figures and traveling thousands of miles only to find out your chosen load isn’t as good as you thought. A friend lost a good Cape buffalo to cast bullet failure a few years back, so there’s wisdom in “shooting cattle” beforehand. That was one expensive lesson.

Interesting point but the correlation between big-bore revolver ballistics and those of old black powder rifle cartridges isn’t new. And the obsolescence isn’t necessarily a ballistics argument but more of a projectile obsolescence. With better and tougher bullets comes the ability to push them faster without failure and yes, though some don’t want to face it, more damage to the animal.

I find it even more interesting how some so stridently stick to their positions not having even killed bear with a handgun - any handgun, let alone with a “gigantic revolver.”

 

[CraigC]

The water buffalo I saw shot with a .44Mag and solids lasted more like 3-4mins and there was no mention about the .460. I've also seen the same with Cape buffalo shot with big bore rifles. Of course, this doesn't have anything to do with the topic of this thread at all. This thread is about carrying a sidearm in a lower 48 state that has had THREE fatal black bear attacks in 120yrs and only ONE of which is actually relevant. Not a brown bear, Cape buffalo, hippo or kangaroo anywhere on the radar.

In the last 120yrs, there have been three fatal black bear attacks in the state of Pennsylvania. One was a captive pet. One was in 1906 when a guy started skinning one that wasn't dead. The only true bear attack happened in 1883. So you are FAR more likely to win the Powerball than to be killed by a black bear in the state of Pennsylvania.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America

Everyone is free to choose however they like. Some will want to err on the side of caution and go heavy. Some never do anything but. However, the idea that the .44Spl or standard pressure .45Colt is woefully inadequate as a sidearm in the lower 48 is just absurd and not very realistic.

Going to bring this up again for context.

 

[Tradmark]

So true. If anyone actually hunts capebuff the. The shooting cows in a pen argument goes away. And max, that friend we both know would agree wholeheartedly.

i generally find it enjoyable when those that havent “been there, done that” find out that most of what john linebaugh preached doesnt apply in the real killing fields of dangerous and that penetration doesnt equal damage. To see the animals run and run and run and get lost and someone pony up for a huge trophy fee for an animal they never recovered can be humerous

 

[swagbrdr]

OP,

I think your .44 spl load will be sufficient for your location and threat.

I would also recommend bear spray. I’m not sure what the laws are like in PA, but dealing with game and fish can be a real hassle when you have to justify your actions to them. Obviously, your safety is paramount over the bear’s safety. Bear spray will usually do it’s job...but not always. Hence the need to carry as well.

What about carrying a rifle as well as your revolver?

For those carrying 9mm for bear defense, I would seriously reconsider. As many have stated on this thread, if that’s all you have, then sure. If you have options, bigger is better when it comes to bears. One chance encounter where someone took a bear down with a 9mm doesn’t convince me it will work every time.

 

[CraigC]

I have never hunted or killed a bear and never claimed that I did. This thread ain't about hunting bears. It ain't about dangerous game. It ain't about Cape buffalo. It ain't about water buffalo. It ain't about Alaska. If it was, my answer would be different. But it ain't about any of that. It's about sidearms to carry in the lower 48 where black bears 'may' be encountered. In a state where there has been ONE legitimate fatal attack in 120yrs.

So while carrying a .460 or .500S&W might be a perfectly legitimate solution for some folks. If you need the critters you shoot to all over as if struck by lightning, then you have your choice. However, it does not render standard pressure .44Spl or .45Colt impotent. It's what I carry and I don't do it because I read about it or because I worship John Linebaugh (because I surely don't). I use it because it works. I know it works. I didn't watch one guy shoot one critter one time and decide I wasn't impressed. So the irony is thick here. Now if you want to take my lack of pictures of game taken with standard weight cast bullets at 900-1000fps as an indication that I have not done it, I can't help that now. I was one of those kids who never wanted his picture taken and that lasted well into adulthood. Couple that with an occupation that required me to work 365 days a year for the first 12yrs and hunting strictly in the evenings since moving to Tennessee in 2007 and there was hardly an opportunity anyway. Had I known that 20-30yrs later I'd be called out on it, I probably would've carried a Polariod at all times and taken crappy flash pictures of every damned critter I ever shot. Even after the dawn of the cheap digital camera, I always focused on taking pics of guns, rather than myself. However, I'm not the first or last to make this claim so I am quite certain there is no shortage of pics of critters others have taken with such loads on the interwebs. I do recall Dustin Linebaugh taking a brown bear with a rather sedate .475 load at a rather extended distance of ~170yds.

Here's a good example. Anybody know when or where this picture was taken? Could be a weathered picnic table anywhere. It was taken in 2005 right after getting the gun back from David Clements, about 2hrs before shooting two hogs with it in South Carolina, about 15mins apart. No pics of the hogs or myself with them. Guess it didn't happen. I like to take and post pics of guns. Not brag about myself. This is why I have never directly addressed questions like this about my experience. I guess in this case it pays to be a narcissist because all I have is my word.

 

[35 Whelen]

One doesn't need to have first-hand experience to know what cartridge/bullet to use for a given game animal, nor to know of what is unnecessarily large.

On a shelf in my study is a small picture frame in which there are two Sierra 6.5mm 140 gr.SBT bullets; one unfired, and another my old man dug out of a big black bear sow he shot in NM in '69 with his 6.5x55.

My wife and took a trip to SE Oklahoma years ago and browsing in one of those Mom and Pop trinket shops back in the woods I found a newspaper clipping about a local who had, with his 22-250, killed a black bear boar that was raiding his chicken pen. The exactly weight is gone to memory, but i do recall that it ways in excess of 400 lbs.

There are countless other examples of these animals being killed with "deer" calibers, and anyone who has read anything on hunting knows this, except of course those with an agenda.

Men have killed black bears since this continent was settled with far less powerful weapons some are now saying are required.
Now you fellas come along and arrogantly claim that anyone who has never shot a black bear, and who disagrees with your choice of handgun and cartridge simply has no say in the matter. Very unprofessional and childish in my opinion.

But if you want to preach that there are 500 lb. bears hiding behind every tree and bush in the lower 48, and that they can only be killed with hand cannons, preach on, you'll always have a small following.

35W

 

[MaxP]

One doesn't need to have first-hand experience to know what cartridge/bullet to use for a given game animal, nor to know of what is unnecessarily large.

On a shelf in my study is a small picture frame in which there are two Sierra 6.5mm 140 gr.SBT bullets; one unfired, and another my old man dug out of a big black bear sow he shot in NM in '69 with his 6.5x55.

My wife and took a trip to SE Oklahoma years ago and browsing in one of those Mom and Pop trinket shops back in the woods I found a newspaper clipping about a local who had, with his 22-250, killed a black bear boar that was raiding his chicken pen. The exactly weight is gone to memory, but i do recall that it ways in excess of 400 lbs.

There are countless other examples of these animals being killed with "deer" calibers, and anyone who has read anything on hunting knows this, except of course those with an agenda.

Men have killed black bears since this continent was settled with far less powerful weapons some are now saying are required.
Now you fellas come along and arrogantly claim that anyone who has never shot a black bear, and who disagrees with your choice of handgun and cartridge simply has no say in the matter. Very unprofessional and childish in my opinion.

But if you want to preach that there are 500 lb. bears hiding behind every tree and bush in the lower 48, and that they can only be killed with hand cannons, preach on, you'll always have a small following.

35W

Again, that’s your takeaway? Missed the point once again.

The weight of one’s opinion is directly proportional to their experience. Might want to think about that before you attack mine.

And on that note, I’m out.

 

[Tradmark]

If ya dont have experience, its not
Worth anything.

 

[brutus51]

^^ Nice looking revolver.
Personally I've never shot a bear or much else for that matter. My hunting interests revolve around upland game because pheasants and grouse are tasty. Also because 99% of the hunt for me is working the dog and enjoying the woods, theirs nothing like a good bird dog.
As for the bears, in my experience encounters with wild life are like a gift from God, memories that remain etched in your mind forever. I could never purposely kill a bear because they are to much of a kindred spirit an animal to be respected and admired.
That's just my philosophy for better or worse.

 

[35 Whelen]

Again, that’s your takeaway? Missed the point once again.

The weight of one’s opinion is directly proportional to their experience. Might want to think about that before you attack mine.

And on that note, I’m out.

Fair enough. So humor me this, and you too @Tradmark -

Your opinion is that the OP's .44 Special loaded with a 255 gr. SWC @1000 fps isn't enough for black bear. So using your logic, for your opinion to have "weight", you would need to have first-hand experience with said handgun and load and the failures you experienced with them when hunting black bear.

Go ahead....

35W

 

[swagbrdr]

The bear debate always seems to get heated for some reason.

In my eyes, I think the OPs choice is just fine. Chances are he will never have to use it. Black bears are more of a nuisance than a threat in the wild. It doesn’t mean they can’t be dangerous, more of them tend not to be unless you come between them and their cubs or food. If they know you’re stomping around in the woods, they tend to push off, possibly before you see it. I work in the woods for a living and this has been my experience.

Griz and cats on the other hand are a whole other story. We do have multiple Griz attacks per year here in MT. Usually during archery season when the hunters are bugling or cow calling. Inadvertently, they call in a Griz. This is a real dangerous situation. Most of they guys here carry a G40 10mm. I carry a 5.5” Ruger Redhawk cambered in .44 mag. But my situation is different than the OPs.

What I can tell you, cutting a fresh Griz track is very un-nerving. It always gets the hairs on my neck standing on end. Fortunately, I have not had to go into combat with these critters...yet. We generally try to hunt with more than one person at a time too...just in case.

 

[Tradmark]

Fair enough. So humor me this, and you too @Tradmark -

Your opinion is that the OP's .44 Special loaded with a 255 gr. SWC @1000 fps isn't enough for black bear. So using your logic, for your opinion to have "weight", you would need to have first-hand experience with said handgun and load and the failures you experienced with them when hunting black bear.

Go ahead....

35W

How do you define enough. Using my daughters downloaded 44 mag load which is essentially that but about 100-120 fps faster. Used on deer, blackbear, oryx (a debacle) and it has killed.....eventually and never in impressive fashion. If its a woods protection gun then having anything being able to run around a bit is gonna lead to pain. I want it dead now and theres just better choices and more potent and better killing bullets with not much more recoil.

 

[MaxP]

Exactly. This will seriously be my last post in this thread. From the start I never said it wouldn’t work, I said there are better choices. And yes, I have seen lightly loaded (relatively speaking) .44 Mags and .45 Colts used on all manner of game. A slow poke through an animal that doesn’t bite might be fine, but not something I want when an animal can actually hurt you. I don’t know why some feel as though they’ve been insulted when suggesting something that kicks a bit harder.

And I am really out this time.

 

[Antihero]

How do you define enough. Using my daughters downloaded 44 mag load which is essentially that but about 100-120 fps faster. Used on deer, blackbear, oryx (a debacle) and it has killed.....eventually and never in impressive fashion. If its a woods protection gun then having anything being able to run around a bit is gonna lead to pain. I want it dead now and theres just better choices and more potent and better killing bullets with not much more recoil.

I usually tell people that I shoot for "thin red mist" if I have to shoot an angry bear attacking me.

That's all I ideally want left if my life is in danger.

FWIW....I carry a 45colt Blackhawk with 325gr hard cast going 1350fps in the woods

 

[Antihero]

Exactly. This will seriously be my last post in this thread. From the start I never said it wouldn’t work, I said there are better choices. And yes, I have seen lightly loaded (relatively speaking) .44 Mags and .45 Colts used on all manner of game. A slow poke through an animal that doesn’t bite might be fine, but not something I want when an animal can actually hurt you. I don’t know why some feel as though they’ve been insulted when suggesting something that kicks a bit harder.

And I am really out this time.

Maybe it is recoil? The beauty of the 45colt,44mag, 357mag, 454, 475 etc is there is plenty of lighter rounds or special versions for lighter recoil.

You could even do the old trick of using lighter rounds to do the bulk of the shooting and load up heavy rounds if you need them.

I don't know about you, but the very last place I wanna find out I don't have enough gun is when I really really need it. Pistol rounds are weak normally, might as well stack the cards in your favor as much as possible

 

[JohnKSa]

Some cleanup work performed. Shocking that a bear thread on THR would get nasty. I think we can let this one rest now. Don't worry, there will be another bear thread before long.