Long recoil semi automatics What happened ?

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cota

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The first and debatable the best the old A5 long recoil and all the spin offs from Italy America Russia other European country’s and Japan. Why did the fall from favour, in what is a very reliable mechanism which will function for a long time with minimum fuss and trouble.
Why are they no more, WHAT HAPPENED?
 
The Remington 1100 happened, and then other manufacturers started making gas-operated guns to keep up. Franchi's AL-48 is the only long recoil-operated shotgun still in standard production today.
 
Why don't we have new cars with carburetors? Why do most pickup trucks come with independent front suspensions? Why don't we all use percolators to make our coffee? Why is most popcorn sold in microwave bags? Why don't men wear suits and brimmed hats to do carpentry or mechanic's work anymore? Why don't we write with fountain pens? Why doesn't your TV or radio have vacuum tubes in it? :)

Lower weight, lower cost, easier to manufacture, more convenient, fewer moving parts, easier maintenance, and the whims of fashion, etc.
 
I love my Belgian A-5's. One of them is my first auto loading shotgun I got when I was 17. Still own it and regulary shoot it. I never felt the need to "upgrade" to an 1100 or any other gas operated for that matter. I just keep pluggin away with the old humpback.
 
Stay calm Mr Farmer. A5's are certainly one of the classic shotguns and the guys that carry them usually shoot very well.
They just can't compete with modern gas operated guns in cost, versatility, weight, reliability with a variety of ammo and the demand of the market.
I have a couple Rem. 11's that I take out on occasion.
 
Too many shooters wanted a do-all gun that would take 2 3/4 target loading all the way to the 3 1/2 super magnums.
One gun to do everything, ya shur ----- wanna buy a bridge!!!
From the selling point sounds great but in practice it won't work. Small fast targets need a light quick handling gun and the long range
goose guns need the weight and barrel length.
The A-5 could not do all that the super guns could so sales dropped off.
 
They lost favor when the military developed reliable gas auto guns. These were brought into the shotgun world and tuned so you can use any shell reliably. That said i would love to have a Remmy 11-48 in 20gauge. My old 16 was one sweet shooter. As long as the spring is good they will shoot any 2 3/4" shell no problems. This old fart doesn't like getting beat with 3" shells these days.
 
Well with the exception of a couple of posts the Reaction because that is what it is a reaction is what i expected.
But touched on above is the Franchi 48AL which as pointed out is AFAIK still in production and right at the top of the heap in Upland semi autos.
Obsolete is a far too damning word i feel, it implies it has been out performed superseded dominated made pointless, which is simply not true.
Others have come this way gas short recoil inertia various types of gas system but in essence non do anything the Original A5 was not doing nearly 120 years ago.
Much is made of the Benelli and Browning inertia systems on the New A5s how they are clean function for long periods without issues, all relevant but the Original long recoil did it just the same.
Bredas A5s Franchi 48s SKBs Baikal tulla many more made good reliable long recoil guns which looked less Hump backed than the A5 and the Remington 48 mirrors this with others from the states, so good looking long recoilers could be produced today virtually identical style wise to the equivalent gas autos.
Gas systems can regulate to some extent but so can long recoil actions anyone who has used magnum franchis and A5s with lighter loads for duck or dove will give clear testimony to this.
A history lesson on what happened is in the thread already the 1100 Remy did come along and the Long Recoil as almost sounded its last post, But my question is still! WHY?.
They are not out classed any more than Benellis inertia system is, I can think of may i know who would buy a long recoil semi today if they existed, a Long recoil 10ga to Replace the Ithaca Mag ten SP10 that recently passed quietly away with few so much as blinking an eye never mind shedding a tear.
As magnums long recoils are good ask and A5 magnum user or Franchi 48 mag or Breda magnum user.
As upland guns the Franchi 48AL 20s and 28s are an awesome if not superior shotgun so to all intents and purpose WHY? Why not new long recoil semis.
I very much doubt any manufacturers will re adopt the Long recoil system anytime soon, but i for one feel this system gives up nothing to any of the other systems in form and function, and in down and out reliability durability and easy maintenance its 120 year age leaves it old fashioned perhaps but never outclassed or out performed.
 
I think cost is most important here. I don't post much about shotguns because my expertise and interest is generally elsewhere (like old gun designs, which is where this overlaps), but questions like this always tend to end up bringing up "cost". In the 19-teens not many people would have seen the massive influence that stamping would have in all the intricate designs we saw come out of Europe in WWII and after. I don't think anyone in the teens could have legitimately foreseen things like CNC machines, let alone 3D printing! Manufacture techniques evolve, and what was cheap to John Browning was expensive to Cold War world powers, and what was cheap in the '70s is now expensive (and machining is getting cheap-ish again with CNC technology!). Is the A5 an old design? Yes. Unquestionably. Is it a good design? Again, a resounding "yes". Is the design still cost-competitive to produce? Probably not. Maybe Uberti will pick up the design and make some replicas. Does the A5 function any worse than any other shotgun? Well... we can argue about the "latest and greatest" of anything. I don't think it functions in an inferior way. Obsolete is definitely not the right word. Maybe "obsolescent" would be closer (as in... getting close to, but not quite obsolete). People definitely still use them. People definitely still enjoy them. But I think they are too expensive to produce for the size of the customer base.
 
Mauser lover I think you have the exact reason why. That's why there are no more Winchester Model 12's, at the end Winchester lost money
on every gun sold. Many of today's guns are just stampings and injection molded parts. And as far as hand fitting no such thing.
New guns are assembled, not built none of the assembler's are anywhere close to being a gunsmith.
 
Please forgive me i am not a Engineer and do not understand the build process of say the old A5 i know it had screws and lock screws was incredibly well made, but simpler typicaly moder constructed semi autos with long recoil were are produced, a Remington 48 is pretty much an 1100 reciever style trigger group, with the exeption of the gas system rather than bushes and spring, i as a layman do not see where the extra cost of long recoil lays, the barrel band is simpler on machining than say the gas chamber and porting of a 1100 for example.
Could be something i have missed regarding the costing aspects but i did say i am a layman re Engineering proses.
 
Just like the term "mechanic" has changed from... a blacksmith...
So the term "gunsmith" has evolved. There is no more need for skilled labor at a massive Colt factory turning out 1873 revolvers by the truckload. Or traincar load. HA! I just illustrated my own point by accident! I love it when that happens.

The really good old-school gunsmiths don't build ARs because they are swamped by work that really CAN'T be done by anyone with a different (more modern) skillset!
 
My basic idea was that manufacture processes have changed pretty drastically. Labor is no longer the cheapest part of production, so designs that use a bit of tuning go away or get more expensive.
 
Properly maintained, a long recoil action shotgun can be very reliable and effective. But that is/was no longer enough. Alas the Franchi 48 AL is also gone. In 20 and 28 they were magnificent upland guns.
The 1100 is indeed what happened - to begin with. It took over the target ranges and fields like nothing before or since when it came on the scene. Combined with the better shells, the softer shooting 1100 blew everything else away in shooter's favors. A lot of Auto 5 shooters and salesmen tried to fight it, but to no avail. I had 3 brother's in law and several friends that had nothing nice to say about an 1100. By 1970 they were ALL shooting 1100s.
A lot has changed since those days. The O/U has taken over a lot of target shooting, the Benelli inertia system became the "in thing" for a while thanks the greatest marketing the world has ever seen, but a lot has calmed down now, even though some still love it. There are now gas operated guns from numerous manufacturers. A lot of shooters are highly internet educated, and worry about such things as the proper size of a middle bead down to 0.001" and perfect gun fit - even though they have yet to even master a consistent mount. Home defense and tactical are big, and "experts" abound, even though it is almost 100% ALL opinion since almost no one has fired a shot in actual home defense. People read it and are magically transformed into experts themselves..
 
Why don't men wear suits and brimmed hats to do carpentry or mechanic's work anymore?
I would like to know the answer of that question also! Today they are just a bunch of plebeians with jeans and sneakers, it's repulsive! BTW - a local gunsmith, in his 70s I believe, (he is well known locally) does wear a suit at work...

To the question: it has nothing to do with cost cutting - to put it simply, gas operated shotguns are more reliable and trouble free than long recoil operated guns. You see, contrary to the popular belief, sometimes engineers do come up with a better working system and it has nothing to do with cost.
 
It's been replaced with Inertia systems like Benelli and copies from Turkey and new Browning Auto 5 (not sure where this wonder is made and assembled probably Turkey too). I have seen 12ga 2&3/4" Remington Sportsman military shotgun marked 'Military Finish' with cannone ball and US markings. That is similar to original FN Auto 5 but made by Remington. Solid but very heavy gun.
 
The Remington 1100 happened, and then other manufacturers started making gas-operated guns to keep up.

Actually, the Remington Model 58 and the JC Higgins/High Standard gas-operated auto shotguns preceded the Model 1100 but the Model 1100 indeed became the iconic shotgun America came to love.

Other interesting designs employing a "short-recoil" system included the Browning Double-Auto and the Winchester Models 50 and 59.
 
I do not feel the gas auto is more reliable, It will not run as long as a set up long recoil gun without maintenance.
Long recoils will shoot thousands of rounds without issue no gas auto can boast that, not even the versamax they will need maintenance before a Long recoil will.
 
you can buy every part for your remington 1100 shotgun including extra barrels along with ton,s of goodies at very good prices, except the receiver on line and install them your self(with out a gunsmith). enough said. eastbank.
 
Wow, this is as good as the 30-30 can't kill deer anymore statements. Every year my Franchi 48L kills birds just like it was designed to do. Obsolete, I think not.

You can kill 'em with a spear just as well as ever too. Doesn't mean there aren't better options than 30-30 and Browning A-5's. I have no issue with anyone using any tool they choose and like to hunt with. We do it for fun after all and there is no rule that says we have to use the most efficient tools.
 
Just my own uneducated opinion. I think cost is the driving factor. There have been a few firearm designs that have gone belly up simply because the market will not pay what they cost to manufacture. While the A5 is mechanically simply, those parts cannot be made with stamped sheet metal and plastic.
 
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