OP
OP
Panzerschwein
member
That appears to be the standard pressure non +P load, but yes that too looks quite effective.
Very Impressive .38 Special Load
- Thread starter Panzerschwein
- Start date
- Status
That appears to be the standard pressure non +P load, but yes that too looks quite effective.
Arkansas Paul
Member
I think I'm going to buy a box to keep in the wife's bedside pistol.
I always worry about the lower velocity stuff like .380 and .38 Spcl expanding reliably.
I always worry about the lower velocity stuff like .380 and .38 Spcl expanding reliably.
ThomasT
Member
CZ9 I don't know what they do from a snub but they are warm and much better than the factory 38 stuff. But from 4-6" barrels they would make an effective load. Also 8grs of Blue Dot will make you wonder what 38 you just popped off. Much better than the weak factory loads listed as +P. Again I don't know what they do from a snubby. But in one test I read Blue Dot turned in one of the lower flashes and the color was described as a Warm Orange color.
My snub load was one suggested by Jan Libourel of the old Guns & Ammo back when they wrote real test with real reviews was a 158gr lead bullet over 5.3grs of 231. IIRC I was getting 960fps from a Taurus 2" snubby with that load.
ThomasT
Member
USSR can you post what bullets those are in your picture please?
158 @ 1100 fps was the old .38-44 load. Which came with the headstamp implication (the '44') that it was to be used in 44-size frame revolvers.
If BB doesn't advise users to do the same thing, I guess it means they think all .38 revolvers are up to the task.
If BB doesn't advise users to do the same thing, I guess it means they think all .38 revolvers are up to the task.
pauli
Member
So, here's the product page for what I think is being discussed (20H/20, not the milder 20A/20 in the picture): 38 SPL +P OUTDOORSMAN 158 gr. Hard Cast Keith 1,250 fps
expat_alaska
Member
What the hell are you guys talking about??
Scott Adams was the originator/cartoonist for the comic strip "Dilbert" and wrote several books.
Jim.
1KPerDay
Member
Yeah, more like, "I'd rather have a bear chew my arm off." They are NOT fun to shoot in a light J frame.
USSR
Member
All were cast by me using an alloy designed to expand at velocities of 750 - 950fps. The bullet on the left is a MP 453423, the original of which was designed by Elmer Keith about 90 years ago for the .45AR. This bullet will usually feed in a 1911, and I shot that bullet out of my Colt Gold Cup at about 800fps. The middle one and the one on the right are the MP 359640, I just used different hollowpoint spuds in the mould to create the penta and round hollowpoints. These two were fired out of my 2.5" Model 19 snubbie in what is called "the FBI Load". The penta point bullet in the middle was fired at 840fps, while the round hollowpoint bullet on the right came out of my snubbie at 945fps. The brass moulds that produce these bullets were made in Slovenia (Europe) by Mihec. If you google "MP Molds", you will find his website.
Don
The +p load iss guaranteed to be too much for me in the Ruger LCR but I do carry the standard pressure version and feel it's adequate, especially considering the gun only weighs 13oz. It seems to kicks less than Remington Golden Saber 125gr +p and with less flash. With luck I'll never know how it performs in real life.
tubeshooter
Contributing Member
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2006
- Messages
- 2,149
The numbers are impressive, and it's good to know that high-power loads like this are available.
That being said, I would be very hesitant to purchase them just on the off chance that a round could find it's way into a gun that is not really suited for it. Either mine or someone else's.
If I were to get some, I personally would probably hit them with a bit of red or orange paint just to be sure they stood out.
Just as you can't really make a .380 into a 9mm no matter how hard you try, at a point you may start to say to yourself "Just get a .357 already!". Rounds like this are knocking at the door of that point, IMHO. I would not shoot them in any .dedicated .38 Special handgun that I liked or thought anything of with the notable exception of the (fairly rare) Ruger SP-101. I would not do a nice K-frame Smith like that, even though on paper it can probably handle it. YMMV.
That being said, I would be very hesitant to purchase them just on the off chance that a round could find it's way into a gun that is not really suited for it. Either mine or someone else's.
If I were to get some, I personally would probably hit them with a bit of red or orange paint just to be sure they stood out.
Just as you can't really make a .380 into a 9mm no matter how hard you try, at a point you may start to say to yourself "Just get a .357 already!". Rounds like this are knocking at the door of that point, IMHO. I would not shoot them in any .dedicated .38 Special handgun that I liked or thought anything of with the notable exception of the (fairly rare) Ruger SP-101. I would not do a nice K-frame Smith like that, even though on paper it can probably handle it. YMMV.
ThomasT
Member
If you are getting worked up by shooting these loads in any 38 special have a look at this article. It deals withn the fallacy of the famous +P load and how it is at best a REAL 38 special round. And in some cases not even that good. This was written by one of my favorite posters over on the Firing Line forum and I bet most of you hear have read his excellent post.
http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html
http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html
Mauser lover
Member
I get what you are saying, and I wouldn't do it to my (approximately) 1916 mfg. revolver; but the K-frame basically IS a .357 mag. As long as it is in decent shape, and of at least fairly recent manufacture, I wouldn't have a problem testing and carrying these. Will it wear out the gun faster? Well... yes (so will using it at all), but I would say that carrying something like this in a decent .38 special K-frame would be more beneficial than detrimental, especially if you needed to use it on a beastie.
1KPerDay
Member
I agree with this. The 125s are livable. The 158s not so much. For me.
tubeshooter
Contributing Member
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2006
- Messages
- 2,149
Yep. No accounting for taste. Possibly my impressions are slanted from using both of these loads back to back in the lcr and my position would reverse itself in another firearm.
There are all sorts of problems with this discussion. One person said he wanted this ammo for his wife's revolver. Heavy bullets at high velocity, no matter what the pressure recoil HEAVILY! I would not shoot this out of a small frame .38 on a bet. In fact, not even in a small frame .357. I have shot the standard FBI 158 gran +P load and I agree that the 125 grain +P kicks noticeably less. That is what I have kept in my medium frame .38 Special revolvers
.
Has everyone forgotten why S&W introduced the L-frame (586/686) revolvers or why RUGER replaced the Security Six with the GP-100. The .38 Special FBI load worked fine in these medium size K-frame revolvers, but beat them till they loosened up and would not function. In a J-frame S&W or COLT Detective Special, it was even worse and the alloy frame guns were not even labeled to use +P for many years for that reason.
Any load that equals the old .38-44 loads will have very heavy, near .357 magnum recoil and wear on a gun. I have examined some of the original .38-44 revolvers and they were built like tanks. They could take that recoil, but mid-frame revolvers, only for so long. If you practice with standard pressure ammo and only use the .38-44 loads when outdoors, fine, but you will not get adequate practice. It would be like when the cops shot .38 Special wadcutters for practice and carried .357 magnum ammo on the street. It was a bad idea as it did not give realistic training.
Also, those .38-44 loads may OVERPENETRATE in a defense situation. I know the poster said it penetrated 13 inches, but what was the test medium. Heavy bullet .357 loads usually penetrate much deeper. Good for bears, bad for people. You could get a through and through hit on a bad guy and end up in jail for felony reckless endangerment. I would almost guarantee a civil suit you will lose.
I just switched to the new FEDERAL HST +P .38 Special in my J-frame and if it shoots well (I worry about keyholing) in my 4 inch .38's, it will become my standard load in the cylinder, but I will use a different load for my speedloaders. The wadcutter shape of this bullet makes quick reloads unlikely. It penetrates enough and really expands which is what makes a good self defense load.
Save the .38-44's for a heavy .357 magnum revolver and the outdoors.
Jim
.
Has everyone forgotten why S&W introduced the L-frame (586/686) revolvers or why RUGER replaced the Security Six with the GP-100. The .38 Special FBI load worked fine in these medium size K-frame revolvers, but beat them till they loosened up and would not function. In a J-frame S&W or COLT Detective Special, it was even worse and the alloy frame guns were not even labeled to use +P for many years for that reason.
Any load that equals the old .38-44 loads will have very heavy, near .357 magnum recoil and wear on a gun. I have examined some of the original .38-44 revolvers and they were built like tanks. They could take that recoil, but mid-frame revolvers, only for so long. If you practice with standard pressure ammo and only use the .38-44 loads when outdoors, fine, but you will not get adequate practice. It would be like when the cops shot .38 Special wadcutters for practice and carried .357 magnum ammo on the street. It was a bad idea as it did not give realistic training.
Also, those .38-44 loads may OVERPENETRATE in a defense situation. I know the poster said it penetrated 13 inches, but what was the test medium. Heavy bullet .357 loads usually penetrate much deeper. Good for bears, bad for people. You could get a through and through hit on a bad guy and end up in jail for felony reckless endangerment. I would almost guarantee a civil suit you will lose.
I just switched to the new FEDERAL HST +P .38 Special in my J-frame and if it shoots well (I worry about keyholing) in my 4 inch .38's, it will become my standard load in the cylinder, but I will use a different load for my speedloaders. The wadcutter shape of this bullet makes quick reloads unlikely. It penetrates enough and really expands which is what makes a good self defense load.
Save the .38-44's for a heavy .357 magnum revolver and the outdoors.
Jim
USSR
Member
Jim,
That's just not true. The S&W L frame was developed because the K frame would not hold up to continued .357 Magnum loads, not .38 Special +P loads like the FBI Load.
Don
NIGHTLORD40K
Member
Yep, cracked forcing cones- usually blamed on super hot 110gr screamer .357s.
dickydalton
Member
I went for over 25 years without a 38 or 357 Magnum. All I shot were 44 Specials, Mags, 22s, 45 Auto, 460 S&W and muzzle loaders. Then i got back into shooting the 38 cal, .380, 9 MM and 45 Colt. Shooting the thumpers for so long has made most of the smaller caliber guns a pleasure to shoot, even with hot loads. I won't say that full house 357s are pleasant in my 2.25" SP 101, but they don't make me cry much. My 9 MMs are pleasant but my LCP stings a bit. My Model 36 is OK with everything I've tried (including the new HSTs and Speer 135 +P short barrel) and my K Frames are a Joy. Don't leave Underwood out of this thread as their 125 grain hollow point 38 Special +P does do 1197 FPS out of my SP 101 2.25".
ray15
Member
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2017
- Messages
- 946
I've only bought one box of commercial 125gr. 38 special +P, the Remington SJHP in the 100-round box they have at most Walmarts. Across my chrono they did 1020fps on average.. from my 4" GP100. My 125gr. handloads using the book +P max of Titegroup do 970fps from the same gun. I wish I had pressure testing equipment...
My max-boogie 22gr. W296 357mag handloads do 1485fps from the 4" gun. Probably only 1200fps from a 2.25" barrel, although I'm not shooting them in such a gun to find out.
Last edited:
Gaucho Gringo
Member
This is almost like the argument in Elmer Keith's book Sixguns. He stated that most of the old lawman when using cap & ball revolvers preferred the .36 to .44. The .44 was stated to be an over penetrating round where the .36 was said to have dissipated all it's energy in the target.
Rock185
Member
If that BB 158 grain .38 Spcl. actually does ~1000 FPS from a 4" or shorter barrel, that is some impressive .38 IMHO. Better velocity than most major manufacturer 38 +P 125 grain I've chronographed. I've chronographed some .357 and 10MM BB that did achieve the velocities that BB claimed, so I wouldn't be surprised if the 38 load under discussion would too.
BTW, even if the 158 actually does 1000 FPS, it wouldn't produce 450 ft. lbs. of energy. More like 350 FPE........
BTW, even if the 158 actually does 1000 FPS, it wouldn't produce 450 ft. lbs. of energy. More like 350 FPE........
bikerdoc
Moderator In Memoriam
The wife (see avatar) insists on using 38 PMC 132 grain fmj in her 4 inch charter arms. Makes me crazy. We have bigger guns and better ammo. Her mind is made up and after 25 years I know when to pick my battles
But she is a good shooter and pity the fool that tests her resolve by trying to break in when she is home.
But she is a good shooter and pity the fool that tests her resolve by trying to break in when she is home.
- Status