Wadcutters for .38 Special SD loads?

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I have loaded a lot of 158 gr. wadcutters in .38 for target practice but recently had a discussion with a couple old timers (cops...) who said they always carried 158 grain wadcutters in off duty .38 Special revolvers because they are very potent as stoppers.

Really? I did some internet research and found some evidence to support this. Opinions?

My Wife is gonna end up carrying a .38 and I want her to have the best she can manage. she is small and recoil sensitive to some degree so +P hollow points are rather pushing it for her. Could the old 158 gr. wadcutter, hand loaded to something with a little heat but not *hot* be the answer for her?

Thanks in advance for any opinions or theory you can impart!

VooDoo

 

[dprice3844444]

great penetration.nice clean cut hole.instead of pushing a vein/artery out of the way due to bullet taper,it will cut them with the sharp edge

 

[Iggy]

They can work well, but are rotten for a quick reload.
By then, adrenalin may have kicked in and a more powerful SWC or JHP won't be a problem for recoil sensitivity.

 

[rswartsell]

Better than LRN aka. "The Widow Maker" (widows of officers who had to use Lead Round Nose in combat).

 

[rcmodel]

First, don't confuse Wadcutters, which are generally 148 grain, with Semi Wadcutters, which are generally in the 158 grain range.

The 158 SWC (Not WC) is in my opinion one of the best for use in a .38 2" or 4" gun.

Heavy and slow, while cutting clear through, is a much better bet then a light & not much faster JHP with iffy expansion out of a 2" barrel.

At least you know it won't bounce off the stolen I-Phone in the BG's shirt pocket!!

rc

 

[LeonCarr]

The Full Wadcutters are great for SD in a snub nose revolver.

Low recoil, very accurate, good penetration to vital organs.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[LAGS]

Speer use to make a 148gr Hollow Base Wad Cutter.
I dont know if it is still availabe.
But I would load them in my wifes 3" Lady Smith with the bullet seated Backwards.
Then you have a HP wadcutter that really expanded.
Her speed loader for reloading was filled with 110 JHP's for back up.

 

[rswartsell]

Good point by rc,

Full wadcutters are perfectly cylindrical (completely flat bullet face or metplat) 148 gr. target loads with pressures and velocities also appropriate for that purpose. They still beat LRN.

It comes down to how reliable the new technology is in your estimation of making hi-tech hollow points expand at the lower velocities of moderate barrel .38 spl. Do they match the expansion properties to the actual velocities attained enough to get significant expansion (without fragmentation) in real world application. IMHO some do, such as Speer Gold Dots. If you agree they may be better choices. That doesn't make 158 gr SWC perform any differently than they have for many years, and if a man with rc's experience says good enough, there's your answer.

 

[tommy.duncan]

My wife carries 158 grain JHP.
The recoil is not bad and of course the massive expansion.

 

[cfullgraf]

Speer use to make a 148gr Hollow Base Wad Cutter.
I dont know if it is still availabe.

148 grain hollow base wadcutters are still available from many sources. Great bullseye punching bullets.

It has proven they do not make good self defense rounds when seated upside down (hollow base forward).

 

[rswartsell]

As a suggestion, try Buffalo Bore standard velocity 158 gr LHP (lead hollow point). The best reproduction of the "FBI Load" I've seen.

They are pricey, but not meant for practice. Reserve most for carry or "serious social work".

Perhaps the best compromise of standard pressure and enhanced effectiveness bullet. Even the Speer uses +P to make the hi-tech no lead hollow points work. OR....as rc said SWC simply work, why question it?

 

[Steve C]

Solid bullets give great penetration but poor upset. Watch videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPCe_fsPJ9k Will they kill or hurt someone, you betcha, but there are better out there.

A solid WC, SWC or RN will all perform the same with insignificant difference. People have all sorts of imagination about what a flat point bullet does vrs a round nose but do they work any better at stopping a human threat, there's no good empirical evidence they do and some that says they don't. 148gr WC vrs Speer Short Barrel 135 JHP

Why use a solid bullet when there are modern hollow point bullets that have proven themselves to be better at stopping threats than any solid bullet even in the low velocity snub nose? The ammo I feel best serves the self defense role in my snub nose .38s are a 158gr LSWCHP +P, Speer Short Barrel 135gr Gold Dots and Remington Golden Sabers all of which have the penetration and upset to make bigger and deeper holes in the bad guy.


Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP standard pressure
Speer Gold Dot test
Remingotn Golden Saber

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

First, don't confuse Wadcutters, which are generally 148 grain, with Semi Wadcutters, which are generally in the 158 grain range.

Yes! That's the way it was....I'd forgotten. The real wadcutter design is 148 gr. 158 gr. are usually anything else *but* wadcutters.

Thank You for that.

My Father in Law was a sheriffs deputy at one time and the two guys I talked to recently were old buddies of his. The wadcutter thing explains why we inherited about 500 rounds of .38 Special either factory wadcutters of hand loads done by my Wife's father.

She is certainly her fathers daughter. We have tried various automatics with her for her upcoming CCW classes and proficiency test with limited success. She handles the Glock 26, her Colt Officers ACP, and our new Beretta Px4 sc well and is fairly accurate but not confident. The slides are vexing her as she has lost a little hand strength....the slide release and mag releases and safety levers annoy her and cause confusion. Then I handed her her fathers S&W model 19 with 4" barrel and Hogue rubber grips.

This she is confident with...very accurate even in rapid fire shooting some of the old wadcutters.



She has a new Ruger LCR coming home tomorrow night and she'll be shooting that and several other revolvers including a borrowed Colt Detective Special (also her fathers gun - borrowed from her mother) and a Dan Wesson .357 with .38's. She is flinchy with +P ammo but I may be able to work her up a hand load that is hotter than a target/plinker yet not +P. We have a 100 light 158 gr. RNFP lead bullets and a lot of old wad cutters.

Just curious if this would work for an SD round and apparently it can!

VooDoo

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

I always though the advantages of the wadcutter for self-defense was the low recoil allowed for greater accuracy and quicker follow ups.

 

[Tony_the_tiger]

I'd be careful with 158 gr. semi wadcutters in very light firearms, lead has a tendency to "jump the crimp" and the bullet starts pulling out of the case, which can lock up the revolver.

Buffalo bore makes a 150 gr. hardcast wadcutter that is compelling, and short enough that I don't think crimp jump would be a problem. However, in lightweight firearms, which is what I personally use in .38 special (a S&W 442), recoil is brisk.

When I shot the 150 grain wadcutter through some water jugs, there was very little disturbance to the water. I do believe this round has enough penetration capability to penetrate to the vitals, however there is alot to be said for expansion and tissue disruption. Shooting someone with that round would be like poking a pencil sized hole through someone.

I ended up testing many rounds, and eventually settled on the 135 grain Gold Dot hollowpoint by Speer. I liked the concepts of the wadcutter in .38, such as excellent penetration, however at the end of the day I was more accurate with the gold dot. It has developed a bit of a street reputation with the NYPD as well, whom it was designed for. I discuss this further in the following thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=729442

I would advise that you find a firearm your wife can shoot comfortably, and that might not be a lightweight .38. Then, try out some different brands and types of ammunition to see which she is most accurate with. If the round meets your criteria in terms of performance, has good accuracy, and is carried or used by someone who understands the firearm, then you will be good to go.

One other note: soft lead has a tendency to deform over time and scratch off, leaving dust residue that can be toxic. For this reason, I prefer hardcast lead, jacketed rounds, or copper bullets. Even with such use, primers are heavy in lead, although I would say that these would be limited sources of exposure compared to the inadequate ventilation systems of most indoor ranges. But I digress...

There are lots of adequate rounds in .38 given the context of the firearm. The gold dot is one of my favorites, but I encourage you to go with your gut, or whatever data is reliable, and train appropriately.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I *really* appreciate the input and perspective, you guys. Obviously, there is a lot of criteria and information both good and hype about which bullet shapes are the most effective. I think we all agree that there is not likely a "silver bullet" or bullet shape that is 100% perfect.

Personally I prefer a hollow point in a caliber that can drive the round fast enough to get expansion...to get expansion is not good enough. We need penetration coupled with expansion to get performance as a self defense round.

Generally, in a revolver, I'd push my Wife to carry a larger, heavier revolver and shoot fast and heavy .38's or in my case carry a .357 with 158 gr. hollow points. She's not gonna be able to hide a wheel gun that size as she's 5' 120 lbs. and recoil sensitivity is a significant issue. Most higher performance hollow point loads (rounds hot enough to get penetration AND expansion) are literally too hot for her to handle in rapid fire....she gets flinchy no matter how much she trains and rapid, accurate follow ups will not happen.

In a panic SD situation I think she's be better served with a milder recoil and multiple, accurate follow ups...which she does well with our Colt 1903's even with "hot" handloads. She can dump 3-4 rounds per second in a group of less than 4". She does the same with a .38 revolver with lower recoiling rounds.

I just wanna get as much thump for the *BaNg!* as I can for her out of a carry size .38.....she's loving the Ruger LCR but she also favors a wheel gun the size of the Colt Detective Special which is heavier and not that much bigger. I'm hoping we can settle on a revolver and work up loads with as much thump as possible within a manageable recoil level for her.

Thanks again for the suggestions and help. The experience of others gives me comfort.

VooDoo

 

[snooperman]

+1 on what rcmodel said. Out of a 2" 38 special snubby the 158gr semi-wadcutter is an excellent choice. Most hollowpoints just do not expand well from the low velocity 2" 38 special.

 

[LAGS]

I agree that the HBWC seated backwards is not the " BEST " defensive round.
But the expansion was far greater at a lower volocity then a 158 JHP out of a short barrel gun.
But for her , shooting mostly in the house, it gave her the peace of mind that the bullet was not going to over penetrate and go thru several walls and hit something she didn't wan to hit.
But on center of body mass, they exerted a whole bunch of energy at close range, and expanded to almost .750 on a sand bag target.
The lower recoil and lesss muzzle blast made it easier for her to Hit the target, and she was more willing to practice with that load more often.
Plus her seeing how the rounds expanded over how a 158JHP expanded, gave her confidance that she was going to put someone on their Butt.
She also liked my three ball #1 Buckshot loads for the .38, and kept one in the cylinder ready to come into battery, followed by the HBWC's

 

[Schwing]

I have carried 148 grain wadcutters in my .38s off and on. My thought is what others have already pointed out; at sub 900fps speeds, I just don't see any hollow point expanding significantly. I also like the fact that they can be loaded fairly light and still punch a nice round hole.

Having said that: Over the years, I have come to the conclusion that I am not going to get too caught up in the rhetoric or conjecture over caliber, bullet type, weight etc. I have fiddled around with multiple types of ammo and have formed some of my own conclusions as to how they are going to perform and I know it certainly makes some difference but, IMHO, the biggest factors are probably going to be a persons frame of mind, reaction time and shot placement.

 

[Wil Terry]

ARE YOU NOT confusing the ' wadcutter ' with the 158GR SEMI-WADCUTTER, an all together different projectile that operates at a damnsite higher efficiency level ??

 

[Mango88]

I have a Ruger LCR .38 Special that I carry just about every time I step out of the house. I load it with Federal 125 Nyclad Hollow Points. They are standard velocity and recoil only slightly more than a 148 gr. wadcutter target load but will expand easily as the are made of dead soft lead with a nylon jacketing. I would suggest this load for you wife's revolver if you can find them, I believe that they may be either a seasonal item or out of production again.

 

[km101]

Several of us did lots of testing on the Speer 148 gr HBWC loaded backward in .38 spl loads in the late 70's & early 80's. We encountered several problems with the load, ranging from blowing out the head of the wad cutter if we tried to push it too fast, to "keyholing" or tumbling at ranges over about 20 ft.

We did not encounter these problems very often, but often enough to make us rule out this ammo as suitable for carry.

 

[rcmodel]

The other thing is, if it expands to nearly 1" diameter, which everyone was hoping for?

Penetration depth will be dismal.

It's like popping the drag chute on a Top Fuel dragster.

rc

 

[whughett]

The OP was for carring "hand loaded" ammo. The pros and cons on bullet style could go forever. My thought is should one shoot some one with ones own custom made ammo.

I hand load and I carry. I don't load my carry guns with handloads. I had read decades back, when I first started handloading, that shooting someone with ammo one had custom loaded was a bad, bad idea. This was in one of the gun mags by a professonal gun writer. The purpose of carring is that someday one may have to shoot someone, we hope not but are prepared to do so. What the difference would be, hand loads or commercial, in the eyes of the law was all laid out by the writer. The only point I remember now all these years later is that it could be a bad idea.

I select a load for what ever gun I want, then work up a like load to approximate the commercial loads recoil and accuracy and practise with that. I then load and carry the commercial one.

Posted only as one mans opinion.

 

[dickydalton]

Midway is selling Atomic 38 Special +P 148 gr Hollow points that I think are backwards hollow base wadcutters at 1000 FPS.
I just bought a box to try out. I have my own hollow base wadcutters to reload and did load them backwards 40 years ago but nor since. I'll give a report after I try these.