Wadcutters for .38 Special SD loads?

[Riomouse911]

I am impressed with the Hornady Critical Defense .38 Sp loads. I recently participated in a FBI protocol barrier/gel test with the Critical Duty semi-auto loads, and we also ran both the +P and the standard pressure defense .38's and 9mm as well.
After 23 years (and still counting) in big city LE, I have been to a LOT of shootings, I've seen the end results of good and bad ammo choices and have seen folks shot with just about everything from a .22 short to grandpas deer rifle. IMHO, these rounds appeared to me to be just about the perfect blend of performance and recoil from the small guns we often pack..so much so that despite being issued duty Winchester 124 gr +P+ SXT ammo for the 9mm Glock (And being a die-hard Winchesterand Federal ammo guy) I picked up the Critical Defense standard and +P .38's for 2" revolver carry and the Critical Defense 9mm load for the LC9. (Both were stoked for years with Federal Hydra-shoks, they're now so old I rotated them out)

With whatever you choose; make sure it functions in your gun, and you and your spouse are comfortable with firing it.

 

[35 Whelen]

I personally don't trust the whiz-bang, latest, greatest, they-expand-beautifully-in-ballistic-gelatin hollow points. My wife carries a 2" .38 Special loaded with a home-cast 152 gr. SWCHP running 880 fps. If the bullet expands, fine, if it doesn't no loss. It'll penetrate well which I think is more important than a magazine advertisement type expansion.

A couple of weeks ago I shot a doe with a .44 caliber SWC loafing along at a hair under 950 fps. When I gutted her, the bullet wounds, entrance and exit, were quite a bit larger than the diameter of the bullet.

I'll take penetration over expansion every time.

35W

 

[suemarkp]

ARE YOU NOT confusing the ' wadcutter ' with the 158GR SEMI-WADCUTTER, an all together different projectile that operates at a damnsite higher efficiency level ??

Define efficiency...

The SWC was created to have the good shock effect of a flat nosed wadcutter, with the long range accuracy of a pointed or truncated cone bullet.

The wadcutter is the most effective shape at creating a permanent crush cavity in a non-expanding bullet. But, they tend to go unstable at 50 yards, so you need something more pointed at longer ranges. If you're not shooting over 50 yds, go with the wadcutter if you don't care or can't get any expansion.

A SWC or RNFP make smaller crush cavities.

You could try a pure lead wadcutter if you want to hope for some expansion. You could try a HP version of a SWC if you want to try for expansion. The backwards soft HBWC is that combination taken to extreme, and sometimes has issues.

 

[Jaymo]

An early '70s Gun Digest annual had an article about the upside-down HBWC.
They had keyholing issues, until they swaged a small buckshot pellet in the cavity.
Keyholing disappeared and expansion was unaffected, IIRC.

 

[Water-Man]

I'm surprised that there has been no mention of one of the best .38spl loads available.

The Cor-Bon DPX 110gr. +P.

 

[LAGS]

@ Jaymo
I never had Keyholing issues, but I only tested my loads at 15 feet.
I figured that was the average distance my wife would have to shoot.
But the slug opening up to 3/4 of an inch was not good for penetration I agree, but the energy transfer would set someone back big time.
And the impact damage even with minimal penetration was severe.
Two shots on a thawed out Ham prooved that.
It went thru a gallon jug of water and blew it up big time.
Way more than the JHP at the same distance.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

The SWC was created to have the good shock effect of a flat nosed wadcutter, with the long range accuracy of a pointed or truncated cone bullet.

The wadcutter is the most effective shape at creating a permanent crush cavity in a non-expanding bullet. But, they tend to go unstable at 50 yards, so you need something more pointed at longer ranges. If you're not shooting over 50 yds, go with the wadcutter if you don't care or can't get any expansion.

A SWC or RNFP make smaller crush cavities.

This!!^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm not seeing how a semi wadcutter is more "efficient" or makes a greater wound channel than a flying cylinder with a meplat that is the entire diameter of the bullet. The SWC has it's applications but at handgun combat distances, with a 2" barreled .38, and assuming no expansion, I'd think that the most face value (the best unexpanded diameter) one can get would do the most damage and be more potent.

The real issue here is recoil. I can get her some very potent rounds in +P but she will not practice with them or they will pound on her until she loses her confidence. And that's not what I want...I rather she use a "marginal" round and hammer a BG 4X in the upper chest than shoot one big "BOOM" that stings and slams her.

We'll be shooting a lot of stuff in the coming weeks as she gains confidence and learns to deal better with recoil. Getting her "her own" revolver has done wonders for her confidence and desire to become more proficient. She may yet become more recoil tolerant but I need to build that confidence slowly and not shatter it by trying to get her to shoot hand cannon rounds for SD.

We will practice will lower powered stuff but I believe she should shoot some of what she will carry and I can't risk hurting/scaring her at this critical stage of her desire.

VooDoo

 

[LAGS]

Getting the wife her own gun was a big confidance builder.
And they were her guns.
I would never have a gun with Pink Grips stuck in my waistband.

 

[BSA1]

In days of yore it was common for us that worked the street to carrying 148 gr. full wadcutters in our J-frame S&W’s. We also tried seating them backwards but as noted in Post 29 keyholing was a common problem.

But that was in the days before reliable JHP bullets came along. I agree with Riomouse911 about the Hornady Critical Defense. I have tested it and Hydra-Shok from a Taurus 2” snubby. I shot them from 4 layers of jean demin and 4 layers of cotton shirt into a water barrel. The Critical Defense expanded every time and the Hydra-Shok 50% of the time. As a result Critical Defense fills my snubby,

However there is no excuse for not testing your ammo in your gun and choosing what performs best.

 

[Tony_the_tiger]

DPX 110 is a sweet load but i'm more accurate with the Gold dot 135.

 

[Jaywalker]

We're living in the past if we think sub-900 fps bullets don't expand these days. While that used to be pretty true, it isn't any longer - every ammo maker ensures they have at least some rounds that penetrate around 12 inches in gelatin, and they could not penetrate that little if there were no expansion. The 148 gr wadcutters (front side frontward) at sub-700 fps penetrate 16 - 18 inches. Those that don't expand overpenetrate to my way of thinking and can be a hazard on the other side, so I stay with the 12-inch loadings. (I'm not a cop and therefore don't have the entire city attorney's office defending me in court, nor do I have the city willing to indemnify me against lawsuits based upon bullet passthroughs.)

The problem isn't finding a 38 special SD round that stops in 12 inches - the problem is that most of those that are sold are +P loadings (850 - 890 fps, approximately) and can be not much fun to shoot in aluminum alloy frame revolvers.

One exception (and not the only exception) to that is the standard pressure 38 Special Gold Dots loaded exclusively for police departments, but occasionally available to the public when police departments don't buy an entire run. I found a bunch of those this last year and called a Speer spokesman to ask if they were also tested to 12-inches of penetration as were their +P loadings. He said all Gold Dots were aimed at that same 12-inch penetration test. When I asked him then why anybody wanted the +P rounds, he said, "It beats me." I guess +P just sounds more effective.

Another round which gets produced every year or so is the Federal Nyclad in standard pressure. It shows bigger expansion than the Gold Dot standards and therefore have less penetration at around eight inches in gel, but as I also have some of that, I can also say it's pretty easy on the hands.

I understand many folks swear by Buffalo Bore, but I give them a miss. They aren't members of SAAMI and therefore don't have to label their rounds "standard" or "+P" the way SAAMI members do. They can therefore avoid putting "+P" on the case head, even if the pressures are high enough to warrant it. They may be good rounds, but I like to know what's going through my lightweight revolver.

I'm sure there are other good rounds, but I have enough of the Gold Dots and Nyclads to last me awhile and so haven't tested them.

 

[rswartsell]

All in all a very thorough and effective thread IMHO.

I think you are getting plenty of good "grist" for the mill. Now couple with personal experience that has been "focused" and I believe the wife (and you) can find confidence in the performance of the lowly 38 spl. snubby. I know I have.

Be safe and enjoy the journey.

 

[ZVP]

I bought a box of full qadcutters for SD out of my model 36 Ghief thinking that they would give the benifits mantioned here.
Well I got an unwanted suprise when I tested the ammo1 Due to the full purchase a full wadcutter gets going down the barrel, you get more felt recoil than from jacketed or SWC bullets. Yes it was a noticable amount too!
I decided that since the little revolver is already a little tough to shoot well, why compound my troubles?
I went to Horniday XTP 125 gr Self Defense ammunition and no more recoil complaints! The jackets slide smoothly down the bbl and the gaping hollow points should open well.
JMHO
BPDave

 

[cpileri]

bigger, heavier wadcutter/

How about these in a snubbie?
http://www.pennbullets.com/38/38230tndrhd.html

Not sure what the velocity would be in a 2" barrel (~700fps from a 7.5" barrel listed), but it woudl be a big 230gr deep penerating slug of lead.

My thinking, a snub is a belly gun anyway; so moving a little slower would still be adequate at social ranges.

C-

 

[PabloJ]

158 gr +P hollow wadcutter of hard lead is fine choice. If I remember correctly Federal is hardest and Remington is softest with Winchester in the middle, but being older I might be wrong.

 

[shafter]

158 grain semiwadcutters are my preferred carry round.

 

[SeanSw]

I agree with Riomouse911 about the Hornady Critical Defense. I have tested it and Hydra-Shok from a Taurus 2” snubby. I shot them from 4 layers of jean demin and 4 layers of cotton shirt into a water barrel. The Critical Defense expanded every time and the Hydra-Shok 50% of the time. As a result Critical Defense fills my snubby,

Are you referring to standard pressure 158gr Hornady .38 xtp? I purchased a box locally to renew my HD ammo without researching their performance. Now I am finding that most people deride this as a poor choice compared to the alternatives because it's slow and it doesn't expand at regular velocities. Currently it's loaded in a 4" barrel but we will have a snub on the way soon.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

148 grain hollow base wadcutters are still available from many sources. Great bullseye punching bullets.

It has proven they do not make good self defense rounds when seated upside down (hollow base forward).

That's what I carried my first tour in Viet Nam -- in a 6" Colt M357. I used a max load of Unique, and used this load twice. It ended both fights -- but a cylinder full would lead the barrel badly.

 

[45crittergitter]

The wadcutter bullet should work pretty well for SD. But most factory wadcutter loads are very light target loads, which do wonders for recoil reduction, but not so much for terminal effectiveness. A couple of boutique makers offer heavy loaded wadcutters, which would be the way to go if the recoil doesn't become a problem. If recoil is a problem, you may be better off going with a lighter (90-125 gr.) hollowpoint.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=23

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=126_139&product_id=555

 

[bluetopper]

Either 148gr double end wadcutters or 158 SWC are all I ever shoot/carry in 38.

Accuracy is King, penetration is Queen.

 

[OrangePwrx9]

"Either 148gr double end wadcutters or 158 SWC are all I ever shoot/carry in 38.

Accuracy is King, penetration is Queen. "

Amen and Amen.

 

[35 Whelen]

How timely. In the December-January 2014 Handloader editor Dave Scovill discussed this in part of his monthly column on page 10. He states: The Lyman 429348 180-grain wadcutter fired out of a .44 Magnum at something close to 1200 fps was/is the most destructive bullet I've ever used in a handgun and easily matched damage produced by a high-velocity hollowpoint varmint bullet launched from a rifle.

I don't know why this wouldn't apply to a wadcutter out of a .38 as well, even though the velocity would obviously be somewhat less.

35W

 

[Hometeached1]

I'd go with Federal's Nyclad 125gr JHPs. Now these won't pass the FBI test, but they were designed to expand from 2" snubbie as the name suggest and don't recoil much. Massad Ayoob says their the best standard pressure load he's seen. I also would not use reloads for SD, but if you wanted to make ones to copy her carry rounds but not cost as much then these would be pretty easy to copy.

 

[krupparms]

When I started reloading in the late '70's, I read about upside down H.B.W.s. So I tryed some. They do keyhole & aren't for long range at all! But up close, they opened up to about 70 Cal. & worked fine. Now I use Fed. Nyclads or Speer G.D.s . These work well. But are getting hard to find. I would use the H.B.W.s if that's all I could get.

 

[HexHead]

I just picked up some Rainier's 148gr plated DEWC. I'll load them with about 4gr of 231 like I did with the HBWCs. I hope to get good performance out of them.