.45 ACP, still viable for military or police?

jski said:

ArchAngelCD, I'm afraid you're completely wrong. All spec operators use 9mm Glocks.

Click to expand...

I’m affraid your wrong. Certain shooting packages have to be done with certain weapons, but there are ways of getting what you want in country. Dudes have been using glocks, hks, 1911s, smith and Wesson’s whatever.
Glock might be the new adopted pistol but people use what they use.

.45 is no longer a viable round for the military. There’s no way it’s penetrating body armor. Period.

jski said:

Is the .45 ACP cartridge still a viable round for military or police use? ...

Click to expand...

IMO, yes.

HexHead said:

.45 is no longer a viable round for the military. There’s no way it’s penetrating body armor. Period.

Click to expand...

Most firearms a soldier can carry by himself aren't going through body armor including 5.56 and 7.62. Not sure why the fact that a .45 won't go through body armor keeps getting brought up as if anything short of a .50 is going through a ceramic plate.

The 9x19mm is more cost effective than the 45ACP. Usually on the order of (2.5-3) rounds of 9X19mm per (1) round of 45ACP. NATO standard. I don't believe that the 45ACP is difficult to shoot at least in my experience but apparently it is problematic for (X) number of individuals or so its perceived to be. What falls out of favor may come back in favor under certain circumstances. I think the 45ACP will be around for a long time to come.

I think even a good 2a vest will stop 9mm and .45.
Kind of pointless to mention either way.

.45 Long Colt is still viable.

Whether it is the best choice is open for debate.

HexHead said:

.45 is no longer a viable round for the military. There’s no way it’s penetrating body armor. Period.

Click to expand...

And, 9mm is?

(Or, .40 S&W, or anything short of .44 magnum.)

Given the current culture of catering to the lowest common denominator, I'd say the .45acp is no longer viable for either of those rolls.

Although, regarding military ammunition and the restriction to FMJ, I have an ex-military friend who has done interesting things in interesting places, claim that .40 was considered quite effective during his time in service, due to the flat meplat. Take that for what you will.

About 3-4 years ago, my local PD had everyone who came in to requalify shoot both their current issue 9mm and .45ACP for the course of fire. Both GLOCKs. Some shot the 9mm first, some shot the .45 first.

Across the board, they averaged 8 points higher with the .45, so they switched over.

So, apparently, it's still viable.

Many years back when I was a Military Policeman in Germany we often worked joint patrol with the local german police. Almost every one of the german cops envied my 1911 or the Military Police Investigators .38 specials they carried. At that time german cops carried .32 Walther pistols for which they had great disdain. One officer told me that a fellow german police officer stopped a vehicle being driven by an escaped homicidal mental patient that liked to use a hatchet to kill his victims. The metal case was a large man, over 6 feet tall and 250 lbs plus. The escapee exited his vehicle brandishing a hatchet and advanced on the policeman who in turn emptied his pistol into the nut job. He finally dropped after taking the last round with one of the bullets penetrating the heart.

I've related this incident on this forum before. At Fort Hood, TX a fellow MP was escorting a commissary (Army name for grocery store) employee with the days receipts. An individual approached the MP and shot him 9 times with a .22 LR pistol and the MP returned fire hitting the bad guy 5 times (we were only allowed 5 rounds on our person) with his 1911. Neither man died but neither man walked away from the shooting scene. I don't think the 9mm would have fared any better as we were only issued ball ammo. Too many people put too much faith in high capacity pistols when in both these instances and the one posted earlier definitely show that multiple hits don't necessarily stop the criminal, bullet placement is the key. Spray and pray is a really poor defense strategy.

Ramone said:

About 3-4 years ago, my local PD had everyone who came in to requalify shoot both their current issue 9mm and .45ACP for the course of fire. Both GLOCKs. Some shot the 9mm first, some shot the .45 first.

Across the board, they averaged 8 points higher with the .45, so they switched over.

So, apparently, it's still viable.

Click to expand...

And presented in consideration of the above, when the Army switched over to the M9, everybody who qualified with a 1911 or a .38 revolver in my BN, including myself, shot better with the 9mm. Granted, my score only went up two points, but it's hard to get better than 40/40.

chicharrones said:

This topic always makes me think of this story.

https://www.policeone.com/police-he...ne-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/

Click to expand...

In this instance I don't believe any caliber pistol round would have made any difference. The officer's statement "Hey, I need to slow down and aim better" and acting on that thought is what saved his butt. The gang banger had one thought, kill the cop no matter what, and no amount of body hits short of a shot to the heart or CNS was going to stop him. Yeah those hits to the lungs and other areas would have eventually caused his death but his determination and mind set to kill the cop kept him going where many other people would have just laid down and waited for the ambulance. You notice after the shooting the officer made his AR much more accessible.

entropy said:

And presented in consideration of the above, when the Army switched over to the M9, everybody who qualified with a 1911 or a .38 revolver in my BN, including myself, shot better with the 9mm. Granted, my score only went up two points, but it's hard to get better than 40/40.

Click to expand...

I would think that part of the reason was that the M9 was new, where as the 1911 was many years old and probably quite worn. Every 1911 I carried in the Army was so worn out and loose I was amazed they didn't fall apart when shot.

45 acp can do the job with much less chamber pressure and I guess less sharp recoil than a 40. It wins with energy and momentum. It loses with capacity, ammo cost and frame size.

Me personally I don't have a 45 anymore although on my wish list is the hk usp 45 tactical and perhaps a shield 45. On the semi auto side I prefer 40 for full size and compact, 10mm for animals and 9mm for sub compact. I think 40 was to some degree more of a killer of the 45.

I don’t understand why people are making it seem like the .45 is a less accurate round. For all practical distances it does just fine with a moderately decentent set up like any other pistol.
For recoil management, if follow up shots are your concern, then learn how to mange recoil better. A pound for pound gun in a smaller cartridge is more forgiving, so you can “shoot better” however if one was to just be consistent with recoil management then it really wouldn’t be an issue. Point it’s, don’t blame a common cartridge for your short coming.
Idc if your military, leo, some old dude with 50 years “shooting” etc. If you didn’t learn it right, then it doesn’t get better in time.

George Dickel said:

I would think that part of the reason was that the M9 was new, where as the 1911 was many years old and probably quite worn. Every 1911 I carried in the Army was so worn out and loose I was amazed they didn't fall apart when shot.

Click to expand...

No, I tuned up the ones in my Arms Room, and actually the best shooter was the one 1911 (vs. 1911A1's) I had,which was mfg'd in 1918. The S&W's and few Colt revolvers I had were all beat and shot out, though. I attribute the rise in accuracy for most in the 9mm is easier to shoot well.

I dont see any point that shows any discovery of 9mm practical superiority. If I have to use issued ammo then I will. For personal use, if im going to use 9mm for whatever reason, its always been 147gr +p. The plus P is to make up the mv difference of a sub compact.
I do the same with a .45 acp. However since the results of a 147gr 9mm and a basic 230 gr .45 acp are about the same..don't forget that a .45 is 11.5mm of cross bore will create a more substantial wound all things aside.
Need more ammo? How many people are you all looking to fight? A handgun should really be for personal safety...not for confronting a mob...
For military purposes...get your rifle back into the fight. If it came down to you and your handgun...save the last bullet for yourself, because its likely your team is dead, and the battle momentum has gone against you and you have failed in a country where you are surrounded by people who hate you. If they haven't killed you yet, they are looking to capture you. Or try your luck and see if you can make it as America's next Lone Survivor.
As far as ammo capacity and carrying it, idk about LEO's but I've only carried about two spare mags of handgun ammo. Even with a 1911. Like I said, it really is only used if **** is going fast paced and you need to get a rifle back into the fight.
The exception to the rule was the development and limited use of the MK23 system. It was developed as a "offensive pistol" but was done in the 90's.

There is nothing wrong with .45ACP other than it's weight. It does weigh almost twice as much as NATO 9mm.

There is a problem with some pistols chambered in .45 ACP:
Magazine capacity
Grip size (if capacity is increased)
Recoil

There are simply too many people with small hands and/or the inabilty to handle .45 ACP recoil even in a smallish police department. This simply can't be ignored when picking a one size fits all pistol.

Personally I prefer .45 ACP and EDC a 1911. But I can also understand why it isn't for everyone.

As I recall reading history, with the fanatical Moros in the Phillipines, it was the Army standard issue .38 Long Colt DA revolver that failed to stop, resulting the call up of mothballed .45 Colt SAA revolvers, followed by the Thompson/LaGuardia studies that resulted in the adoption of the .45 ACP and ultimately the 1911 pistol. It also resulted in the development of the .38 Special derived from the .38 Long Colt. I do recall the story that a design requirement for Thompson/LaGuardia was a cartridge that would stop a cavlaryman's horse.

I also recall in the era of local option prohibition 1953-1968, the bad guys involved in bootlegging prized the .45ACP Colt 1911 and the .38 Spl S&W M&P Model 10, but often had to settle for less (whatever was stolen and available on the black market). 7.65mm and 9mm were considered unAmerican but Lugers were thought of as status items.

Personally (for what it's worth) I think that as long as the military is limited to ball ammo that there will still be a role for the .45 ACP.

45 is viable. It works. It has always worked.
But it weighs more and holds less.

In a military setting, weight is a serious concern and it is my understanding that handguns are not used often in combat.

In a police setting, weight may be less of a concern but still present.

That being said, I work for two cops who both use 45's on duty.

Now we may begin the case for 10mm