Super 9mm leaves 45 acp in the dust

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Kodiaz

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well at least according to this guyhttp://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=374
Defense Review - Kimber 1911 Pistol for USMC's Elite MCSOCOM Det 1 Unit and the 9x23mm Cartridge.http://www.defensereview.com/

Kimber 1911 Pistol for USMC's Elite MCSOCOM Det 1 Unit and the 9x23mm Cartridge.
Posted on Monday, November 03 @ 05:56:13 PST by davidc

Pistols by David Crane
[email protected]

The 1911 pistol that Kimber is currently supplying to U.S. Marine Corps Special Operations Command Detachment 1 operators, according to reports, differs from the Kimber Custom TLE/RL II in several key respects (The following information is, as yet, unconfirmed/unverified):

1) It utilizes Kimber's Series 1 safety system, which is simpler/less complex than their Series 2 safety system featured in all of Kimber's current guns offered to the civilian and law enforcement communities. MCSOCOM Det 1 operators apparently did not want to trust their lives to the...

Kimber Series 2 safety system. Can't blame them there. Unnecessarily complex safety systems forced on consumers by lawyers have absolutely no business on military operational guns.

2) It utilizes the original GI spec half length guide rod(instead of the TLE's full length guide rod), which will allow operators to field strip the pistol more easily and without tools. The half length guide rod will also allow the operator to be able to conduct certain one-handed emergency action drills(including ejection and chambering of a new round/i.e. manual cycling) that are either impossible or very difficult to achieve with a full length guide rod installed. The half length guide rod also allows for the traditional press check.

3) It features a Kimber factory ambi-safety (info provided by Bryan Ramsey).

4) It features genuine Novak sights, something DefRev hopes will be offered as a factory option on all Kimber pistols in the future.

5) It has an Ed Brown beavertail grip safety (info provided by Bryan Ramsey--see "Comments" below).

6) It incorporates a lanyard loop.

7) It utilizes a Dawson Precision screw-on M1913 Picatinny rail instead of the Kimber TLE/RLII's integral frame rail.

So the reader is aware, the proper abbreviaton for U.S. Marine Corps Special Operations Command Detachment 1 is, according to noted gunwriter and tactical instructor Pat Rogers, MCSOCOM Det 1, not "MARSOC Det 1", as has previously been used by most publications to describe the U.S. Marine Corps' new Special Operations (read that as SOCOM compliant) unit.

The new Kimber MCSOCOM Det 1 gun is chambered in .45 ACP. In my opinion, MCSOCOM Det 1 would be better served with 1911's chambered for either the 9x23mm cartridge or .38 TJ (rimless version of the .38 Super cartridge). The 9x23mm and .38 TJ cartridges are simply more versatile and capable (in several key areas) than .45 ACP, and, in the author's opinion, might be a better choice for U.S. military Special Operations/Counterterrorism use, in general, unless a team is using specialized .45 ACP ammo like the Le Mas BMT APLP (Armor-Piercing Limited-Penetration) 85-grain .45 CQB round, which will penetrate NIJ Level IIIa body armor. The 9x23mm cartridge is superior to the .45 ACP cartridge in the following respects:

1) 9x23mm offers at least equal and perhaps even superior ability to put hostile human targets down quickly in CQB engagements compared to the .45 ACP. Winchester Silvertip 9x23mm ammo utilizes a 125 grain hollowpoint bullet at 1450 feet per second. That's true .357 magnum ballistics. 125 grain 9x23mm ammo in +p loadings will probably come in at 1600-1700 fps. Now, imagine what kind of velocity and body armor/hard armor penetration one can achieve with a specialized 75-90 grain projectile in a +p or even +p+ loading and the right bullet construction, material, and shape.

2) 9x23mm has a significantly greater effective range than .45 ACP due to its higher velocity, lighter weight, superior ballistic coefficient, and flatter trajectory. Targets can be effectively engaged at a minimum of 1.5 times the effective range of a .45 ACP gun. What happens if the operator's primary weapon goes down in the middle of a combat engagement at a range of 100 to 150 yards? Why not have a secondary weapon that can still reach out and touch someone at that range?

3) 9x23mm exhibits significantly superior penetration characteristics over the .45 ACP round against body armor and hard targets (in similar bullet configurations). 9x23mm would also be more effective at penetrating loaded 7.62x39mm magazines (for the AK-47/AKM series of rifles) that are often carried by enemy forces in chest harnesses. Before the round even gets to the body armor, it has to be able to penetrate these ammunition-filled magazines.

4) Single-stack magazine capacity for 9x23mm is 10 rounds as opposed to 7 rounds for .45 ACP(giving an operator a total of 11 rounds in the weapon). Military operators tend to use 7 round magazines for their .45's, not 8-rounders, due to the increased reliability of the 7-rounders. 9x23mm ammo is also lighter than .45 ACP, so an operator can carry more of it at the same weight.

5) In trained hands, the 9x23mm allows for faster engagement of multiple targets compared to .45 ACP, due to the reduced felt-recoil and muzzle flip generated by the 9x23mm round. The 9x23mm also creates a faster cycling time than .45ACP.

6) And, last but definitely not least, 9x23mm feeds more reliably through the 1911 than .45 ACP, even though the 1911 was originally designed around the .45 ACP cartridge. This translates to less stoppages and jams. The 9x23's tapered case and narrower profile most likely contribute to this.

The .38 TJ cartridge essentially offers all of the advantages of the 9x23mm, except it uses a straight-wall case, instead of a tapered case, so it doesn't offer the same chamber feeding advantage that the 9x23mm offers. However, it's straight-walled case, it could be argued, aids in consistant stacking inside the magazine.

So, the gun I would really like to have in the future is a Kimber MCSOCOM Det 1 configured gun in either 9x23mm or .38 TJ, provided I have access to either factory or high-quality reloaded ammunition that won't "break the bank" to purchase. Now, that just might be combat pistol perfection.

At the very least, I hope Kimber eventually offers the MCSOCOM Det 1 1911 pistol to civilians. Frankly, I think we deserve it. After all, we made Kimber what it is today.

By the way, in case anyone reading this article disagrees with my assessment of the superiority of the 9x23mm round over the .45 ACP round for U.S. military Spec-Ops use, I would refer them to someone who is much more knowledgable about 9x23mm than I am, one Dane Burns. Dane is an established pistolsmith and an authority on the 9x23mm cartridge. You can visit his website at BurnsCustom.com. An entire section of Dane's site is dedicated to the 9x23mm cartridge. And, yes, Dane knows how to build a 1911 in 9x23mm for serious social purposes. He also makes some of the best 1911 components, in case you're looking to upgrade your own 1911. You can check them out by clicking here.


Ok is this 9x23mm some new super bullet or is this guy out of his bean
 
I knew that couldn't be right I just figured I'd have some one shoot milk and cheerios all aver there monitor. Merry Christmas I pick my 1911 in 2 weeks. It won't be set on "Stun" (chambered in 9mm)
 
9x23 is not a new cartridge. IIRC, it was first fielded by the IPSC crowd in an attempt to have a cartridge that made major in a smaller caliber.

I very rarely see loaded ammunition available for the 9x23.

I believe that the article was written by someone engaging in wishful thinking. The 9x23, while certainly a powerful cartridge, does not have the history of reliability that the .45 ACP has. To expect the Defense Department to manufacture obscure ammunition for a handgun that is not universally fielded is speculative to say the least.

I believe that the .45 ACP round will be used for a long, long time before anyone thinks seriously about changing calibers for the troops.
 
I think he is also ignoring that, for whatever reason, most military use is limited to FMJ ammunition. Now as I understand it the provisions of the Hague Accords specify the terms are only binding for as long as both warring parties are signitaries and abiding by the terms. Which means, at least in theory, to my understanding, that we could use JHPs if we so chose, but given that FMJ ammunition is used in both the 9x19 and .45 currently, I don't see why the military higher-ups making the decisions would make an exception for the 9x23. They probably have their reasons for issuing FMJs and aren't likely to abandon them for any other pistol caliber. While it would boast pretty good penetration characteristics, I doubt even the added velocity would do much to make a .355 caliber FMJ more effective than a .451 caliber FMJ.

Can anyone say for sure if the more "black" organizations are using JHPs? Or do they use, either by choice or lack thereof, the same ammunition as the regular guys?

Personally, if an obscure pistol cartridge is to get adopted, my vote goes to the 10mm Auto.
 
9x23 Win. is a really interesting cartridge, but hasn't been a success in the market. With body armor getting common, there is a big argument in favor of rounds that can get up to the velocities needed for armor penetration. There aren't many pistol cartridges that can do this in a reasonable package, but 9x23 is one.

(The 9x23 Win. uses brass which was designed for very high pressures; the old 9mm Largo was a low-pressure 9x23, IIRC, and the very old 9mm Bergmann-Bayard - but the 9x23 Win is a very different animal.)

9x25, however, is a necked-down 10mm derivative which can do almost anything the 9x23 could - check out doubletap.com.
 
Anyone one can have a webpage on any subject. Choose your gun "expert" wisely.

-Bill
 
The 9x23 Win has characteristics placing it in the realm of the street earned reputation achieved by the original hot 125 gr .357 magnum cartridge. It exceeds the 357 Sig significantly, and the 38 Super by a lower margin, but with a safer, more robust case.

Winchester loads Silvertips, and the old economy White Box, in 124 gr offerings. Corbon has a 100 gr Powerball loading at 1600 fps, and is at the end stage of releasing a DPX round designed for the 9x23. It is a niche market, but not obsolete.

Jim Garthwaite is another gunsmith that has tackled and embraced this round. I have a LW Commander he rechambered to 9x23, with a spare 9mm barrel. The conversion back and forth is simple. The 9x23 is also set up in tolerances making the use of 38 Supers seemless.

In the past few years, I have handled 9x23 converted CCO's (Officer frame, Commander slide hybrid), Commanders such as mine, and full size 5" Government models. All these Jim built. They all work exceptionally well. The slide velocity is extremely quick, and we the owners, generally conclude the gun works so fast its nearly impossible to induce a limp wrist malfunction. The recoil is straight to the rear, and target reacquisition it lightning quick. This round may have been developed for competition circles, only to lose its favor there to the entrenched and less expensive 38 Super, but it clearly has a following among the self-defense community.

The round achieves velocities that hover at what is considered the floor level threshold where we see temporary wound cavities in human flesh becoming permanent. Usually rifle velocity levels produce permanent stretch cavities. As the elasticity of human tissue is unable to move as fast as the pressure wave, it is overcome and destroyed, leaving the temporary cavity permanent. The extra 100 - 200 fps this round generates now starts to produce meaningful gains.

I have had discussions with an individual who took his personally owned 9x23 Win over to the Middle East on deployments. He describes the round's effectiveness on humans as impressive. One such firefight took place racing down the highway, the engagement occurring between vehicles traveling side by side. The rounds passed thru tempered glass and vehicle steel to find its target and "performed adequately".

This round may only achieve marginally better results over the 38 Super, making it not as cost effective for the competitive shooter. It is still obscure enough to make ammo selection and retail outlet locations limited. However, it is finding a true home in the hands of the civilian defensive pistol market. Winchester continues to make its 9x23 Win brass components available to the reloading public; they catalog the Silvertip and White Box; and Cor-Bon has its two offerings, 100 gr Powerball and a DPX round due to come out this year. I do not see the military fielding this round. It has its place, but a restricted ammo source makes it a logistical impracticality. No matter, I'll enjoy it all the same, just as many more enjoy the 38 Super without military contract support for that cartridge.

I find it the perfect mating of a stout, manageable caliber to a platform uniquely designed to work this round safely and offer good handling characteristics. A major complaint of the old hot 125 gr .357 Magnum round in a revolver was recoil management. The 1911 sets the bore line lower in the hand and absorbs some of the recoil with its semi-auto design. And I can easily swap out my barrel and recoil spring to shoot 9mm for cheaper, less punishing high round count practice sessons/shooting schools.
 
Kodiaz said:
I knew that couldn't be right I just figured I'd have some one shoot milk and cheerios all aver there monitor. Merry Christmas I pick my 1911 in 2 weeks. It won't be set on "Stun" (chambered in 9mm)
Click to expand...

Stun... lol

I'm somewhat neutral when it comes to calibers, but mid-grain 9mm JHP +P has about the same stopping power as .45 JHP.

I like Colt 1911 and I like other guns, too.
 
At the very least, I hope Kimber eventually offers the MCSOCOM Det 1 1911 pistol to civilians. Frankly, I think we deserve it. After all, we made Kimber what it is today.
Click to expand...
You mean, like the Kimber Warrior, which actually has a rail that fits lights available to civilians vs. the Dawson Precision rail (which is not M1913-spec) which only works with one light that Surefire offers that is not available to the general public? :rolleyes:

7) It utilizes a Dawson Precision screw-on M1913 Picatinny rail
Click to expand...
Like I said before, it's not M1913-spec.

The writer doesn't know jack about the Marine pistols, nor about Kimber's current offerings. I bet he just thumbed through Pat Rogers' article and wrote his article based on that without really reading it, since Pat pointed out the rail wasn't M1913-spec.
 
The point about the robust brass is important, because I understand that the factory offerings for this are pretty lightly loaded.

Check out 9x23.com.

Also, as high as the pressures are, this should be the loudest thing at the range!
 
"The half length guide rod will also allow the operator to be able to conduct certain one-handed emergency action drills(including ejection and chambering of a new round/i.e. manual cycling) that are either impossible or very difficult to achieve with a full length guide rod installed. The half length guide rod also allows for the traditional press check."

I think you can judge the knowledge of the author on this subject by these statements alone. Full or half length guide rod doesn't make either ejections or chambering any easier or more difficult, and as for the stupid "traditional press check" yeah, wouldn't want to retrain people to reach up from the bottom of the gun, grab the front sides of the slide and pull it back ever so slightly so you can see if you're chambered, we'd all much rather train people to put their finger directly in front of the gun under the muzzle, so if they screw it up and leave their other finger in the trigger guard, they could be one fingertip lighter.
 
The 9x23 is an excellent round with a decent hollowpoint load - at least as good as the legendary .357 Magnum. However, military operators can't always use JHP ammo, and in a hardball load, the overpenetration problems would be enormous. Also, who is realistically going to try to make hits, routinely, with a handgun, at 100 yards or more? It's a close-range problem-solver, no more. I'd rather have a decent .45 round, even in hardball, for the greater impact at closer ranges.
 
As a practical matter, any cartridge used by our military forces is going to have full-jacketed bullets, not hollow points. This because of political, not practical reasons. If it came out that our men were using hollow points the radical-left Democrats would have a cow and make a major issue of it. At the present time the war is unpopular enough with the public that the Republicans don't want another issue to justify.

Pistol cartridges other then the 9mm Para and .45 ACP may (or may not) have their points, but there is ZIP chance they will be adopted by our military at this time.
 
Also, who is realistically going to try to make hits, routinely, with a handgun, at 100 yards or more?
Click to expand...

I don't disagree, but I would note that the British SAS trained at hitting targets at 100 meters and further, with their P-35 Brownings, I have seen competitors in Metallic Silhouette Matches hit rams at 200 meters with 1911 .45 automatics, and during the 1880's the manual for the old 1873 Colt Single Action Army contained trajectory tables for distances out to 1000 yards... :what:

The Old Fuff is way too modest to discuss some of his own long range shots... :evil:

All unusual exceptions to the rule of course... :D
 
Just FYI

My BHP 9mm came with a catalog that offered sights with elevations out to 500 yds. That indicates to me that they think I should be able to hit a target with it out to at least that far.
 
Its funny ..... I always agreed with #1 and #2 on that list. Thats why I only buy series 1 Kimbers, and as soon as I receive them, switch out that silly ass FL guide rod, to a standard guide and add a standard plug. Maybe it doesnt take a "military arms expert" to see that those two things arent nessisary on a fighting handgun. :rolleyes:
 
9x23

As someone who actually owns a 1911 in 9x23, I can positively state is a great round and is ideal in a 1911.

My 9x23 gun is my most accurate 1911 and also most fun to shoot. Friends who shoot it like it and often consider getting one of their own. The only drawback noted by everyone is how really F'n LOUD it is. REALLY LOUD, can you still hear me, loud. A very loud, sharp report. Of course to those who normally shoot 14.5 inch barreled M16 variants it should sound just about right.

As to 9x23 availability, my local grocery store stocks it when available in their sporting goods department (I regularly buy all they have).

What it could be compared to is a +P++ 38 Super that doesn't give one SuperFace side effects. Think .223 rifle brass shortened a 9mm bullet stuffed in and safe at rifle chamber pressure levels.
 
Kevin Quinlan said:
So lest see. We have a 9X17, .380
9X18, Makarov
9x19, Luger
9x20, Steel Plate gun
Gee why not another:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

Kevin
Click to expand...

Aha! The graduated length method.

It's popular in .22s, 38s, 9mm, 30 caliber rifles and a bunch of others. Think 45-70, 90, 110 and 120.

For another, think 44mag and then set a 444 marlin next to it... :)

Merry Christmas.
 
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