Super 9mm leaves 45 acp in the dust

[Zak Smith]

I would disagree that DR is not a reliable source of information.

http://www.defensereview.com/article463.html

 

[Justin]

I would disagree that DR is not a reliable source of information.

In my experience, when Zak posts something, it's because he knows what he's talking about. I've only read DR passingly, so cannot speak on it with authority, but if he doesn't consider it to be a good source of info, there's probably a reason for it.

 

[Zak Smith]

FWIW, I have nothing against 9x23. It's a great cartridge. When I shot one, I thought a single-stack 1911 shooting factory 9x23 (125 @ 1450fps) with no comp or anything had less recoil and flip than a 45 shooting 170PF. The difference was how "flat" and "quickly" the recoil was perceived, allowing the sights to get back on target faster.

With Starline 9SC brass available, it's a viable choice for reloading, and arguably the best choice for a .355" chambering in a 1911 or SV/STI "2011" (ie, since there is no rim like 38Super, and it is tapered).

 

[Brian Williams]

also forgot the 356TSW

 

[georgeduz]

well that bull,long live the 45

 

[Car Knocker]

It may be picky, but there is no such thing as a Kimber Series I. There are pre-Series II Kimbers and Kimbers marked Series II but there are no Kimbers marked Series I.

 

[loose cannon]

i think antiquated claptrap like the treaty forbiding expanding ammo needs to be gotten rid of.with a good expanding bullet the 9x19 is just as good as the 45acp and has better cover penetrating abilitys.

against body armor body armor neither one is effective.in order to make a effective armor penetrating round i belive a saboted penetrator would be the answer.

im not claiming to be a firearms expert,the above is my opinion.

 

[williamlayton]

I am assuming Dane R Burns, correct me if I am wrong.
Dane is a very competent smith and Of all that I have read, he is considered a very competent authority on the 9x23. This comes from other smith's not rag writers.
Blessings

 

[Powderman]

yes, Dane Burns is an excellent gunsmith, from what I know and have seen. However, I can almost guarantee that the 9x23 will not assume any more than a passing interest to the .gov. Why is that? Consider this:

The Department of Defense has a strict protocol that must be followed when suggesting or adopting a new firearm or caliber.

The round is tested exhaustively first. Then, after it is OK'ed, a proposal for test trials is submitted with the specifications desired for the handgun to be adopted.

One of the overriding factors in firearm selection has always been compatibility with our allies, and the use of existing stocks of ammunition. Consider the original Garand rifle--not in 30-06, but in .276. This bullet is ballistically superior to the .30 ball round, plus 10 would have fit in the Garand clip. So, why didn't we use it?

Because there were tens of millions of rounds of .30-06 ball stockpiled from WW1. It made no financial sense to throw those rounds away, and we did not have a brisk surplus market like we do today.

 

[grendelbane]

The 9x23 emerged when too many guys trying to make major were blowing up .38 Super brass... It's still a handloading nightmare, and _really_ needs a muzzle brake.

I don't understand why you consider the 9x23mm to be a handloading nightmare. It basically assembles just like any other auto pistol cartridge.

In fact, I would say that it is a very easy cartridge to load. The only problem I have seen is that some brass is a little too thick for some 147 grain bullets. I hardly consider this a handloading nightmare. Of course I don't think that the 357 SIG is as much problem to load as some people claim, either.

I have fired mine both with and without a comp. The high pressure of the 9x23mm cartridge makes a comp very effective, but it is still quite manageable without it. I have not reached a decision as to whether or not mine stays comped.

 

[mattjoe]

"You forgot 9x21, AKA .38 Super. "

Actually, no, 9x21 is shorter than 38super, 38 super cases are the same length as the 9x23case.
There's certainly nothing wrong with the 9x23, it's a nice enough cartridge, but it really doesn't do anything the 38 super variants can't do also when handloaded. I agree with grendelbane, can't see why anyone would consider loading the 9x23 a handoading nightmare. It's no more difficult than loading the 45.

 

[atblis]

"Reloading Nightmare" Hardly!

Not quite. 9x23 is great. Never had any problems reloading it.

Saying that 9x23 can't do anything that 38 Super hand loads can't do isn't quite accurate. 9x23 is basically a beefed up 38 super rimless (more or less). There are some slight differences, but most importantly 9x23 brass is thicker, and thus can be loaded to higher pressures. I don't care to load 38 SA to 50kpsi.

I have two Witnesses. One in 10mm and the other in 38 SA. When shooting 9x23 compared to 10mm, there is a huge difference in recoil. The 9x23 is much more controllable. 18 rounds of 115gr XTPs at 1500+ fps works for me. 15 rounds of 180gr XTPs at 1350 also works for me.

I would be pleased to see our troops carrying a 10mm or 9x23. It will never happen.

 

[williamlayton]

No doubt, this round is quietly being overlooked and probably will continue to be.
I also liked the M-14, alas!
I have tried to vote but see no ballots available.
Blessings

 

[MCgunner]

Ain't nothin' wrong with plain ol' 9x19. Far more good defense loads available, even +P stuff. It loads and functions 100% in small, concealable, easy to carry handguns as well as full size service pistols. And, when you can get a box of practice ammo for under 6 bucks at Walmart, why the heck would you care about a handgun game playing load like 9x23? If you want .357 ballistics out of a service pistol, get the .357 sig! Well, it's CLOSE with a 125 grain bullet, anyway.

I think too many people are reinventing the wheel in the firearms world. Been doing it for a while, I guess. The real innovation is at the top end of handgun power now days like that new .460 Smith cannon. I think it's all pretty much been done in self defense cartridges. From the .357 magnum and .45 ACP to the .32 H&R mag/S&W long and .32ACP, I can't think of a real innovation that needs doing. Maybe I'm wrong. But, every time some "new" cartridge comes along, it just seems to be a rehash. The 10 and .40 were pretty innovative, but since then what has really set the world on fire? The .41 mag was the last I can remember before the 10 came along and it was the answer to a question that didn't need asking. The .357 is a better defense round. If the .41 had caught on, there might be more suitable loads available for it, but it's pretty dead as a defense load, though more of by hunters.

Before the .357 sig and the 9x23 and whatever else, there was the .38 super. It's basically just a hot rod 9x19, same ol' same ol'.

 

[1911Tuner]

Engagement

Have to go on record as saying that 150 yards is a pretty fanciful distance for engaging hostile targets with a handgun...especially seeing as how most mano e mano rifle deployment these days occurs at 25-100 yards...and the hostiles are hard enough to hit at even those distances with a rifle. Anything much beyond 200 yards is usually engaged with crew-served weapons.

Yeah...I know about the steel rams. I used to enjoy that game too. They don't shoot back.

Can't remember who said it but there's a quote that I remember that would address the question of sending a pistol to do a rifle's task:

"Any infantryman who stops serving his rifle in order to engage in pistol practice at an enemy deserves to be killed."

 

[loose cannon]

ill say a 150yds is pretty much a stunt for combat pistol encounters.if your longgun goes down and the only good rifle around is in the enemys hands at 150yds itd be nice to be able to trade him a pistol slug for it.

but i agree 150 is a long shot to me a 100 is alot to expect out of a pistol.
now with a good revolver the story would be different,elmer keith in his prime and prob after could hit a mansize target at 600yds.

if i ever have to go into a combat situation im going to do my best to have one of my 44mags along.if nessesary i think i can trade a 300gr jhp for a functioning rifle at 150yds and perhaps alittle more tho ive not anywhere near elmers skill level.

1 time some joker called elmer out on his long range ability and elmer handed him a wad of money and told him to stay still at sevl 100yds and if he survived 6rounds he could keep the money.

he decided not too and that decision extended his lifespan.

 

[patentnonsense]

1) Back when the US had more of an armed citizenry, people did some seriously long-range pistol shooting just for grins - say 300 yards or so. Targets would be located in water, so you could see where your "lob shot" splashed down. There was an article about this sport in Gun Digest a few years back.

2) Factory 9x23s still surface pretty often - just search for "9x23 -largo" and you'll get (e.g. on gunbroker):

Item Number: 41824774
Item Title: Colt Government 1911 MK 9X23 w/38 Super
conversion
Price: $750.00
Ending Date: 12/29/2005 4:01:44 PM
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=41824774

Item Number: 41879680
Item Title: colt 9x23 Rare, only 1500 made, 500
survived
Price: $1.00
Ending Date: 12/26/2005 7:02:50 PM
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=41879680

 

[amateur]

I found a forum section dedicateed to 9x23 (pistolsmith forum) and the person who knows a lot about it is pistolsmith Dane Burns

 

[1911Tuner]

Elmer

Quote:

1 time some joker called elmer out on his long range ability and elmer handed him a wad of money and told him to stay still at sevl 100yds and if he survived 6rounds he could keep the money.
********************************

Exactly the point. Not many guys who are shootin' and gettin' shot back at are gonna stand still...fully exposed...and wait for you to get registered and fire for effect.

During the "Mad Moment" that firefights have a way of turnin' into, it's hard enough to get a clear shot at an antagonist with a rifle at 150 yards...much less a pistol.

 

[cowpuncher/pi]

I remember reading on the Michael Bane Blog. That some of the guys over there were using STI raceguns chambered in------9x23.

 

[Grunt]

First off, after that wonderful story (of fantasy) of the Marines buying a bunch of Glock 37s, I do NOT consider anything wirtten by Defense Review to be relaible information and simply one mans flights of fancy. Second, I used to be in the Corps and never seen anything other than .45 ACP and 9mm (9x19mm) being used. These days I'm a combat arms instructor for the Air Force with an AFSOC command and again, I have yet to see anything in 9X23 (or 9X21 or any other IPSC caliber) in the armoury or have ever signed for any ammnition in that caliber. We have plenty of Spec Ops folks on my range and none of them have ever used these calibers either.
Anybody else in here old enough to remember "Pistolero" magazine from back in the mid-80's? I think they may have had a name change to Defense Review and havve gone online rather than printing the shooting worlds "National Enquirer".

 

[atblis]

9x23 isn't fading away because of 357 Sig.

I think 9x23 is actually cheaper than 357 Sig.

 

[ShelbyV8]

357 sig isn't going away because of the 9x23 either.

 

[grendelbane]

357 sig isn't going away because of the 9x23 either.

357 SIG is a great cartridge. It provides the same light weight bullet performance that short barrel .357 magnum's provide.

And it does it in a 9mm length package.

The market for the 9x23mm is with the 1911 crowd, primarily. Handloaders can probably hotrod the 9x23mm way above the performance of the 357 SIG.

I have loaded all 3 variations. 9x23mm, 357SIG, and the 357SIG case loaded to 1.25", to fit into a 10mm magazine in a Delta Elite.

147 grain bullets at 1400 FPS are possible. I have not gone higher yet, as that satisfied my velocity sweet tooth. Until we get bullets that are designed to expand at those velocities, we have gone as far as we need to go.

 

[mattjoe]

"Saying that 9x23 can't do anything that 38 Super hand loads can't do isn't quite accurate. 9x23 is basically a beefed up 38 super rimless (more or less). There are some slight differences, but most importantly 9x23 brass is thicker, and thus can be loaded to higher pressures. I don't care to load 38 SA to 50kpsi."

Oh come on. What kind of velocities do you actually want to load to with what kind of weight bullet?
With the various powders that have been developed out for the super, I'm guessing there are plenty that won't require you to reload to 50,000psi in the appropriate gun. I remember the days the super was relatively new and a friend of mine was reloading 125s at 1600 fps in an SV
ridiculously loud, and sure, it dented up the steel, but the gun worked all the time, and didn't blow up.