Is this time different - is this a tipping point?

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Aim1

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The shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland Florida involved a 19 year old with serious mental health issues and an apparently legally bought AR15. What's different this time is the extreme views of those going after the NRA this time as if the NRA is the problem. They are going after politicians who took money from, support them and support the 2nd Amendment. The students themselves are starting their own march on April 20th (the 19th anniversary of Columbine) called the "March for Our Lives" and are calling for a nationwide walkout of schools. This could be the first of it's kind with students walking out from class across the nation.

We need a SCOTUS ruling protecting the owning of semi-automatic rifles, specifically the AR15 since they will be going after them hard this time and they are already getting ready to push legislation for an AWB again.

Another thing that doesn't help is when critics say, "why does anyone need an AR15" proponents rarely say, "for self defense and that they have been used in a few successful self defense situations already", they just say, "it's our right to own them" which sounds idiotic. By saying self defense and self defense against the government it take some away the “no one needs an AR15 for hunting” argument.

We also have to stop saying that it's "a mental health issue" only. When a radical Islamic terrorist commits a terrorist act with an AR15 that is not someone with mental health issues, that is solely a person that believes their religion allows them to kill people. And this person would most likely be able to purchase this weapon legally also if they didn't have any previous convictions that stopped them from this. We definitely need to seperate the mental health issue ones from the politically or religiously motivated ones.

Although so-called "assault weapons" are used in less than .0125% of killings (I believe) it is the one that is used in a few mass killings and gets the brunt of the attention.


This time feels different, have we reached a tipping point?




http://time.com/5164939/march-for-our-lives-florida-shooting/




The Teens Who Survived the Florida School Shooting Are Organizing a National March to Demand Gun Control
Click to expand...

By JENNIFER CALFAS February 18, 2018
Click to expand...

 
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I cannot be sure if “this one” is the tipping point; I can say that eventually a future school shooting will be a tipping point (I can personally say that Sandy Hook really, really bothered me - it does to this day). I can understand children not wanting to attend school being afraid; I can also understand those children wanting to take action to not be afraid anymore - fear is a very haunting and debilitating emotion. I can also say that I do not want my four grandchildren to ever be afraid to attend school or get attacked at their schools with an AK, AR or any firearm. With all that said, I am an avid gun owner and shooter - like the vast majority, I have never nor do I have any intentions of hurting anyone - it is my hobby and I cannot imagine a life without this hobby. In turn, “they” simply cannot have my firearms nor my rights. I will continue to think about my grandchildren and this hobby; I do not have a solution to offer at this time BUT, I am confident that strong, cooler heads will prevail. Good shooting.
 
Time will tell if it is a tipping point. But the narrative cannot be that guns are bad. The contract we have to allow government specifically says our gun rights shall not be infringed.
 
Is this thread different.....than the last half dozen about the topic?

You guys need to relax. Realize that even if you are not one, there enough true Patriots willing to defend the Constitution in this country that all of your worst fears will never actually happen, no matter how much the MSM wants you to believe it.

The govt knows it too, which is why they won't go there. In this day and age they'd be dealing with a Ruby Ridge on the hour every hour. And that's something they don't want to touch no matter how much whining they hear from the libs.

In a few weeks the MSM will be completely back to trying to humiliate Trump and police brutality.

Nothing to see here....
 
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No, this is not a tipping point. The result will be the same as after the previous incidents: no change. The political calculus hasn't changed.

That said, the hope that the Supreme Court will protect AR-15's is misplaced. Under Scalia's opinion in the Heller case, the only thing that's protected by the 2nd Amendment is an ordinary handgun in the home for self defense. The militia clause is basically a nullity. Following Heller, lower courts have already held that AR-15's are not protected.
 
AlexanderA said:
No, this is not a tipping point. The result will be the same as after the previous incidents: no change. The political calculus hasn't changed.
Click to expand...

I disagree. I think this is a very different mass shooting for one simple reason- social media.
There's no fewer than a dozen videos on various websites (eg, Liveleak.com) with videos taken by students during the actual shooting.
It's one thing to see silent and grainy CCTV footage from a camera mounted in corner near the ceiling like in Columbine.
And in Vegas it was mainly the report of the rifle(s) that was the prominent feature.
And there's little if any video or audio of most mass shootings in general.
But not all media is reported by the mainstream media and it's a very different experience to watch high resolution videos from cel phones.
These kids recorded the shooting, as it took place, and you can watch kids hunkered down under their desks as debris flies through the air from bullets going through doors. You can watch SWAT enter and clear a classroom and everyone's hands go up in the air when ordered. There's a video of a girl being picked up from the floor and carried away because she was in obvious shock laying next to the body of a classmate with a pool of blood all over the floor.
There's a video of kids running out of the building, passing at least one body laying in front of the lockers.
This is all out there and can be streamed on command. And it's all high-resolution.
I don't think lawmakers have much choice than to do something and maybe the best thing to hope for will be a compromise of some sort.
Watch the videos for yourself.
My views on gun control aren't changed, but I'm convinced this will be a pivotal moment and I'd bet a bipartisan bill will be introduced that passes both houses.
 
AlexanderA said:
No, this is not a tipping point. The result will be the same as after the previous incidents: no change. The political calculus hasn't changed.

That said, the hope that the Supreme Court will protect AR-15's is misplaced. Under Scalia's opinion in the Heller case, the only thing that's protected by the 2nd Amendment is an ordinary handgun in the home for self defense. The militia clause is basically a nullity. Following Heller, lower courts have already held that AR-15's are not protected.
Click to expand...



However, didn’t SCOTUS rule that weapons that are in common use are protected?

The AR15 is definitely in common use and the most popular rifle currently, no?
 
The Teens Who Survived the Florida School Shooting Are Organizing a National March to Demand Gun Control

Well, no they are not. They are not capable to do that in this short of time, it's the (D) party and subcreatures in their employ that is doing it.
 
Have you contacted your State and Federal Reps yet , or are they singularly hearing from the other side?
 
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As bad as I hate to bring politics into it, it’s reality.
If this is a tipping point it will be because the political party that’s normally on our side (at least as far as gun rights/control) will bend, probably because the leader of the party will bend to public pressure first. At that point enough of our normal defenders will have excuse to “compromise” then the door is cracked open, and a door cracked opened is much easier to fully open.

It’s easy for any political party to unify against the party in power, that’s one reason the minority party is nearly always the obstructionist party, and effective at that obstruction.

Remember when candidate Trump signaled he may be open to “universal background checks,” then he met with the NRA and reversed course? I do, and I remember thinking true colors may be shining though. If that happens now, well, the door will crack open.
 
Aim1 said:
The shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland Florida involved a 19 year old with serious mental health issues and an apparently legally bought AR15. What's different this time is the extreme views of those going after the NRA this time as if the NRA is the problem. They are going after politicians who took money from, support them and support the 2nd Amendment. The students themselves are starting their own march on April 20th (the 19th anniversary of Columbine) called the "March for Our Lives" and are calling for a nationwide walkout of schools. This could be the first of it's kind with students walking out from class across the nation.

We need a SCOTUS ruling protecting the owning of semi-automatic rifles, specifically the AR15 since they will be going after them hard this time and they are already getting ready to push legislation for an AWB again.

Another thing that doesn't help is when critics say, "why does anyone need an AR15" proponents rarely say, "for self defense and that they have been used in a few successful self defense situations already", they just say, "it's our right to own them" which sounds idiotic. By saying self defense and self defense against the government it take some away the “no one needs an AR15 for hunting” argument.

We also have to stop saying that it's "a mental health issue" only. When a radical Islamic terrorist commits a terrorist act with an AR15 that is not someone with mental health issues, that is solely a person that believes their religion allows them to kill people. And this person would most likely be able to purchase this weapon legally also if they didn't have any previous convictions that stopped them from this. We definitely need to seperate the mental health issue ones from the politically or religiously motivated ones.

Although so-called "assault weapons" are used in less than .0125% of killings (I believe) it is the one that is used in a few mass killings and gets the brunt of the attention.


This time feels different, have we reached a tipping point?




http://time.com/5164939/march-for-our-lives-florida-shooting/





Click to expand...

I agree its VERY different.

And the major difference that I see and believe is that the "students" have major cash backing from the anti gun groups that are organizing and PUSHING for these children to be used.

Yes = USED, these are children and if allowed to grow up in a normal society ,they might see that since the horrific AR-15 has been for sale to civilians in this country for at least 50 [ yes FIFTY ] years ---- this is a problem that is NOT a "gun" problem.

I stated it prior,and its a major point in my opinion,I saw and had my hands on an AR-15 in a NEW YORK CITY gun shop in 1968 !!!.

Bought my first one in 1978,and the gun is NOT the problem.

Look at the money [ always follow the cash ] and see how fast and well this "student" movement has grown and where it is headed.

I will not believe that this is a "student" movement,but one paid in full by Bloomberg et al.

You know,those who are "allowed" to have a NYC CCW = when the rest of the peons are not.

Rant over.
 
Aim1 said:
However, didn’t SCOTUS rule that weapons that are in common use are protected?
Click to expand...
There's a bit of a misconception here. Scalia came up with the "common use" test to justify the protection of ordinary handguns. And it was "common use" in the civilian world, not "common use" in the military or militia. Scalia put in verbiage to say that "dangerous weapons," such as machine guns -- the quintessential militia weapons -- are not protected. The AR-15 is just one notch below a machine gun in this hierarchy.
Aim1 said:
The AR15 is definitely in common use and the most popular rifle currently, no?
Click to expand...
True. But the lower federal courts, following Heller, have ruled that the AR-15 is not protected (upholding the New York SAFE Act, etc.).
 
Steve S. said:
I cannot be sure if “this one” is the tipping point; I can say that eventually a future school shooting will be a tipping point (I can personally say that Sandy Hook really, really bothered me - it does to this day). I can understand children not wanting to attend school being afraid; I can also understand those children wanting to take action to not be afraid anymore - fear is a very haunting and debilitating emotion. I can also say that I do not want my four grandchildren to ever be afraid to attend school or get attacked at their schools with an AK, AR or any firearm. With all that said, I am an avid gun owner and shooter - like the vast majority, I have never nor do I have any intentions of hurting anyone - it is my hobby and I cannot imagine a life without this hobby. In turn, “they” simply cannot have my firearms nor my rights. I will continue to think about my grandchildren and this hobby; I do not have a solution to offer at this time BUT, I am confident that strong, cooler heads will prevail. Good shootin

I agree with you 100% Steve.
There have been too many Copy Cat events since Sandy Hook and each new event brings us closer to some negative actions that we arent going to like.
Maybe we need to collectively come up with some ideas that will help head it off at the pass before it occurs. Doing nothing, but claiming Second Amendment rights is not going to hack it much longer.
Like most of the members here, I shoot for sport and fun and have enjoyed the hobby for more years than I like to admit. However I believe that my hobby is in more danger than it was when I started shooting over 40 years ago.
So what can we do in a preemptive manner to avoid losing our rights to engage in a sporting and fun hobby?
Click to expand...
 
exbrit49 said:
There have been too many Copy Cat events since Sandy Hook and each new event brings us closer to some negative actions that we aren't going to like.
Maybe we need to collectively come up with some ideas that will help head it off at the pass before it occurs. Doing nothing, but claiming Second Amendment rights is not going to hack it much longer.
Like most of the members here, I shoot for sport and fun and have enjoyed the hobby for more years than I like to admit. However I believe that my hobby is in more danger than it was when I started shooting over 40 years ago.
So what can we do in a preemptive manner to avoid losing our rights to engage in a sporting and fun hobby?
Click to expand...
OK, let's engage in a thought exercise here. Let's say that the NRA-ILA proposed a preemptive omnibus gun bill that raised the age for "assault weapons" to 21, banned bump stocks, and provided for some form of universal background checks (with safeguards to prevent de facto registration), but also removed silencers and SBR's from the NFA, repealed the Hughes Amendment, and provided nationwide concealed-carry reciprocity. (In other words, a theoretical "reasonable compromise.") What would be the reaction to such a move?

Two things are absolutely predictable:
1. The antigunners would have nothing to do with the proposal. Therefore it would make no headway in the Senate.
2. The rank and file NRA members would stage a revolt, saying that the NRA leadership was a "sellout." LaPierre and Cox would be forced to resign. Never mind the positive changes from such a deal.

All the players are thus trapped in their hard line positions. In the current polarized political atmosphere, there is no middle ground.
 
re:
''2. The rank and file NRA members would stage a revolt, saying that the NRA leadership was a "sellout." LaPierre and Cox would be forced to resign. Never mind the positive changes from such a deal.''


What is your version of a ''positivie changes from such a deal?''

And.....aaaaaaanndd.... what is in the ''deal'' -what is it again that the (D) and their subcreatures would be willing to give up? I missed that Press release, interview, tweet, Sunday /am talk show speech or etc.
 
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This could be a tipping point. But it won’t be in their favor. Even if they ban the AR (won’t happen) there are millions that will be grandfathered in. And people aren’t going to turn their AR’s in (RocketMedic excluded). Because there is a bigger picture involved here that those people aren’t seeing and that the liberals pray the public doesn’t see.

Make no mistake, this isnt about guns in the hands of criminals. Nor is it about laws for protection of civilians that don’t have armed security. It’s still, and always will be, about power and control over “We the people”.

The children and parents from Florida don’t realize that they are being played by truly evil people who couldn’t give a rat’s ass about them. They are but innocent pawns on the chessboard of Freedom. And that angers me way more than the mentally unstable kid who killed their friends.
 
CLP said:
I disagree. I think this is a very different mass shooting for one simple reason- social media.
There's no fewer than a dozen videos on various websites (eg, Liveleak.com) with videos taken by students during the actual shooting.
It's one thing to see silent and grainy CCTV footage from a camera mounted in corner near the ceiling like in Columbine.
And in Vegas it was mainly the report of the rifle(s) that was the prominent feature.
And there's little if any video or audio of most mass shootings in general.
But not all media is reported by the mainstream media and it's a very different experience to watch high resolution videos from cel phones.
These kids recorded the shooting, as it took place, and you can watch kids hunkered down under their desks as debris flies through the air from bullets going through doors. You can watch SWAT enter and clear a classroom and everyone's hands go up in the air when ordered. There's a video of a girl being picked up from the floor and carried away because she was in obvious shock laying next to the body of a classmate with a pool of blood all over the floor.
There's a video of kids running out of the building, passing at least one body laying in front of the lockers.
This is all out there and can be streamed on command. And it's all high-resolution.
I don't think lawmakers have much choice than to do something and maybe the best thing to hope for will be a compromise of some sort.
Watch the videos for yourself.
My views on gun control aren't changed, but I'm convinced this will be a pivotal moment and I'd bet a bipartisan bill will be introduced that passes both houses.
Click to expand...


Exactly.

There are videos from within the school and they are horrifying and stomach-churning. They could push someone who’s on the fence to join the anti-gun side or even pro-gun people to the anti-gun side. Like that gun owner who turned in his AR15.
 
DoubleMag said:
What is your version of a ''positivie changes from such a deal?''

And.....aaaaaaanndd.... what is in the ''deal'' -what is it again that the (D) and their subcreatures would be willing to give up? I missed that Press release, interview, tweet, Sunday /am talk show speech or etc.
Click to expand...
I was replying to a post that said that the pro-gun side should propose a preemptive plan to deal with the problem. My whole point was that the antigunners would never go along with such a plan no matter how reasonable it sounded. And, in any case, the rank and file NRA members would revolt.
 
AlexanderA said:
All the players are thus trapped in their hard line positions. In the current polarized political atmosphere, there is no middle ground.
Click to expand...

That's the sad fact of our political situation. That American people can't come together and even talk about ways to solve a problem. And it is a problem. A poster above claimed it will be forgotten in 2 weeks. Maybe not headline news, but not forgotten. These events are recurring too often for the memory to totally go away.

A lot of the posts divide the sides into pro-gun and anti-gunners. Some day, there is also going to be a significant "people who are sick and tired of nutjobs with an AR15 shooting up schools/churches/public gatherings" faction.
 
Laphroaig said:
A lot of the posts divide the sides into pro-gun and anti-gunners. Some day, there is also going to be a significant "people who are sick and tired of nutjobs with an AR15 shooting up schools/churches/public gatherings" faction.
Click to expand...
That's not a "middle ground" position. What you are saying is that significantly more people are going to be converted into antigunners. If true, that's bad news for our side.

In politics, passion counts as much as numbers. Up to now, the passion has been on the side of gun owners, because those are the people with the vested interest (after all, they own the guns that are being threatened). Most antigunners were lukewarm, because they viewed the situation in the abstract. Perhaps now the passion may be shifting in favor of the antigunners because of all the graphic coverage on television and in social media. We shall see.
 
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