Is this time different - is this a tipping point?

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I doubt if this goes anywhere. Congress hasn't done anything in 9 years. I don't see them doing anything but Russian BS and Trump bashing.


They were just showing on Foxnews how this shooting hasn’t “gone away” in the news because of what they believe is the student advocacy.


They also just said that Trump is willing to push the improved background checks, which in actually ok with, which punished federal agencies for not sending in the proper info to NCIC.

This bill died last time because they attached the national carry reciprocity to it. If they could attach it again and pass it it would be a big win for pro-2nd Amendment folks.
 
Tipping point? That was Sandyhook, One could draw the conclusion that is why Remington in filing for Bankruptcy.

Tipping point for the FBI ? It seems when the mass shooting is investigated and the shooter was known to them proir to one could question their judgment and or motives.
 
From Simon Black, aka The Sovereign Man: This came in an email to me and he has allowed it to be shared
On the morning of May 18, 1927 in Bath Township, Michigan, a 55-year old municipal worker named Andrew Kehoe used a timed detonator to set off a bomb he had planted at the local school.

Kehoe was Treasurer of the School Board, so he had unfettered access to the school.

According to friends and neighbors, he was having personal issues with his wife (who he had murdered days prior) and extreme financial difficulties. He was also severely disgruntled about having lost a local election the previous autumn.

Whatever his reasons, Kehoe took out his rage on the 38 schoolchildren he killed that day.


It remains the deadliest attack on a school in US history.

Sadly, it wasn’t the first-- there were numerous reports of school shootings throughout the 1800s and before.

And as we all know too well, it wouldn’t be the last.

Last week’s shooting in Florida is another tragic stain in the pages of US history. And it’s completely understandable that emotions are running high now.

People are demanding action. They want their government to “do something.”

The problem, of course, is what we’ve been talking about so far this year in our daily conversations: emotional decisions tend to be bad decisions-- and that includes public policy.

We keep hearing the phrase “Common Sense Gun Laws,” for example.

And that certainly sounds reasonable. Who could possibly be against common sense?

[As an aside, I do wonder why “common sense” is only reserved for the gun control debate. Why doesn’t anyone demand common sense airport security? Or a common sense federal budget?]

But it’s never quite so simple.

Many of these “common sense” solutions are emotional reactions.

As an example, the Florida shooter in last week’s tragedy is only 19 years old. So now one of the proposals being tossed around is to have a minimum age limit to be able to purchase a firearm.

I suppose if the shooter happened to have been 70 years old, people would be talking about having a maximum age limit instead.

Yet neither of these “common sense solutions” really solves the problem.

A big part of this is because no one really knows what’s causing the problem to begin with.

We know that there are far too many people committing acts of violence in schools and other public places.

And, sure, a lot of the time they use firearms. But we’re also seeing murderous rampages with cement trucks, U-Hauls, and everyday appliances like pressure cookers.

Any of these can be turned into a weapon of mass destruction.

But the debate only focuses on firearms.

One side presupposes that more regulations and fewer guns will make everyone safer.

The other side of the debate, of course, argues that more guns and fewer regulations will make everyone safer.

The reality is that there’s no clear evidence that either side is correct.

Australia is often held up as an example of a nation that passed strict gun laws (including confiscation) in 1996 following several mass shootings.

And yes, gun violence dropped precipitously. Australia now has one of the lowest murder rates in the world.

But contrast that with Serbia, for example, which is the #2 country in the world in terms of guns per capita (the US is #1).

Serbia has a strong gun culture and fairly liberal laws. Yet its gun violence rate is incredibly low, on par with Australia’s.

There are plenty of examples in the world of places that passed strict gun laws, and violence decreased (Colombia).

Others where violence INCREASED after passing strict gun laws (Venezuela, Chicago).

Other examples of places which have LOW levels of gun violence, yet liberal laws (Serbia). And still others with LOW levels of gun violence and fairly strict laws (Chile).

The point is that you can look at the data 10,000 different ways and never really find a clear correlation. So there HAS to be something else going on.

Is it cultural? Perhaps.

Japan, for example, has extremely strict firearms laws. You can’t even own a sword without special permission.

And Japan, of course, has very limited gun violence. But this is not a violent culture to begin with.

You probably recall back in 2011 after the devastating earthquake and tsunami, Japanese people sat quietly outside of their collapsed homes and waited for authorities. No looting. No pillaging.

Contrast that with the city of Philadelphia earlier this month, where people were out rioting, looting, and setting property on fire… simply because their football team won the Super Bowl.

Perhaps there’s something about the US that has people so tightly wound they dive into violence at the first opportunity.

Maybe it’s all the medication people take. Or the crap in their food. Who knows. But it’s worth exploring the actual SOURCE of the problem rather than treating a symptom.

The larger issue, though, is that this “common sense” mantra is tied exclusively to LAWS.

Guess what? There are already laws, rules, regulations, and procedures on the books. They’re not working.

In the November 2017 mass shooting in Sutherland Springs, Texas, the shooter was able to purchase weapons because the Air Force erroneously failed to record his military court-martial.

And with the Florida shooting, the FBI had the suspect on a silver platter and did nothing.

It’s clear that the laws on the books aren’t being properly implemented. Yet the solution people want is MORE LAWS.

How about better execution? How about applying that all-important “common sense” to the way laws are carried out?

This is conspicuously missing from the debate.

There’s almost no conversation about what’s actually CAUSING the violence.

Instead, people are focused on a manifestation of that problem (guns) and demanding more laws to control that symptom even though the existing laws are being pitifully executed.

This is a pretty horrendous way to solve a problem.
 
Just like the shooting in Las Vegas this too shall pass. It is time to actually think instead of blaming the gun. Even the anti people should be realizing this. Gun laws in cities with high murder rates are already very restrictive and obviously have done no good. The assault weapons ban did nothing except sell a lot more guns than would have been sold not to mention manufacturers cranking out high capacity magazines as fast as they could.
 
It depends on whether the moral panic takes over the supposedly progun legislators.
Moral panic from Wikipedia (well known effect) is defined as:

A moral panic is a feeling of fear spread among a large number of people that some evil threatens the well-being of society. A Dictionary of Sociology defines a moral panic as "the process of arousing social concern over an issue – usually the work of moral entrepreneurs and the mass media".

If the progun posers think that going for more laws or bans will benefit them politically, they will fold. If gun rights believers who aren't posers panic - then they will fold.

The sad thing is that any chance of a realistic and empirically based attempt to try to stop the killing but respect gun rights is neigh on impossible as all the tribes care about is staying in power or in a cushy safe district.

Here is a somewhat reasonable take on the problem: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/02/18/whats-missing-from-the-gun-debate-217022?lo=ap_f1
 
I disagree. I think this is a very different mass shooting for one simple reason- social media.
There's no fewer than a dozen videos on various websites (eg, Liveleak.com) with videos taken by students during the actual shooting.
It's one thing to see silent and grainy CCTV footage from a camera mounted in corner near the ceiling like in Columbine.
And in Vegas it was mainly the report of the rifle(s) that was the prominent feature.
And there's little if any video or audio of most mass shootings in general.
But not all media is reported by the mainstream media and it's a very different experience to watch high resolution videos from cel phones.
These kids recorded the shooting, as it took place, and you can watch kids hunkered down under their desks as debris flies through the air from bullets going through doors. You can watch SWAT enter and clear a classroom and everyone's hands go up in the air when ordered. There's a video of a girl being picked up from the floor and carried away because she was in obvious shock laying next to the body of a classmate with a pool of blood all over the floor.
There's a video of kids running out of the building, passing at least one body laying in front of the lockers.
This is all out there and can be streamed on command. And it's all high-resolution.
I don't think lawmakers have much choice than to do something and maybe the best thing to hope for will be a compromise of some sort.
Watch the videos for yourself.
My views on gun control aren't changed, but I'm convinced this will be a pivotal moment and I'd bet a bipartisan bill will be introduced that passes both houses.
Yes I think that you have stated valid points. However, the something that has to change is that schools can not remain "No Gun Zones". Background checks are not effective and will never be effective, however, we will see some type of "fix nics" change most likely.
 
IMHO, the Parkland incident is clearly and provably a failure of the Florida mental health system (who checked Cruz), local PD (who responded to dozens of incidents at Cruz's home involving Cruz) and the FBI who dropped the ball on two reports linking Cruz to intent to carry out a school shooting. Throw in the minimal security at the school (one guard for 3000 students) and I feel this incident is the clearest case of everything that went wrong WAS NOT with existing gun laws nor could it have been prevented with more gun laws.
 
The thing I find interesting is they got what they wanted. Gun control was implemented here. The school was a gun free zone. And it obviously didn’t work. So now they want more.....the same thing that always happens. It’s exactly why gun control DOESN’T work.
 
Interesting piece in the NY Times this morning, suggesting that Russian bots are behind a lot of the social media hype about the Florida shooting.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/19/technology/russian-bots-school-shooting.html

The overall point is that Russia is exploiting social media to feed political divisions between Americans. While I don't think that the fundamental societal problem is new or that long-term solutions require new gun controls, what is new is the way special interests, foreign and domestic, exploit mass psychology to make these issues seem more acute than they are.

Interesting to me that the NY Times, of all sources, is saying that a lot of the hype is being perpetuated by foreign interests, and that gun control is less the reason than the opportunity.
 
The thing I find interesting is they got what they wanted. Gun control was implemented here. The school was a gun free zone. And it obviously didn’t work. So now they want more.....the same thing that always happens. It’s exactly why gun control DOESN’T work.
They know it doesn’t work but they need it in place for confiscation to begin.
 
They(Times) are grasping for any proof of Russian meddling period.

Hey the Russians meddle; they've been doing it since the cold war. And we meddle in their stuff; it's what big nation states do. The meddling isn't new. Trying to affect mass psychology isn't new, either (c.f., propaganda). But social media is.

Remember this old saw?
Americans grow up on Mother Goose ...
Russians on Papa Gander.
 
Its interesting that the student activists can't seem to place the blame on their former schoolmate as easily as they blame the implement. They blame the implement easily because it is an object of distaste for them. The former student was one of their own and makes holding him responsible a heavy emotional lift for adolescents.
 
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Its interesting that the student activists can't seem to place the blame on their former schoolmate as easily as they blame the implement. They blame the implement easily because it is an object of distaste for them. The former student was one of their own and makes holding him responsible a heavy emotional lift for adolescents.
It’s not surprising at all. They have been conditioned from early in life that nothing they do is their fault. And to blame something else.
 
Nine years into the federal Gun Free School Zone Act 1990 and five years into the federal Assault Weapon Ban 1994. we had the Columbine High School massacre 1999.

As the sunset/renewal of the Assault Weapon Ban approached 2004, the Centers for Disease Control and the National Research Council under the National Academy of Sciences conducted reviews of academic research into impact of gun laws on firearms violence. They found no solid proof that any of these laws had a measurable impact.

Yes, the Stoneman Douglas High School shooting may be a tipping point, but not the one the anti-gunners want.

In shootings, like most crimes, we have an actor with motive, opportunity, and means. Crime prevention focussed on identifying those with expressed motive, or focussed on denying opportunity to those who do act, can have impact and not tie up a lot of resources. Broad legal restrictions on means which can be acquired illegally or substitutes made are often a waste of resources. Does anyone recall that the Maryland and New York State ballistic fingerprint database laws were repealed because they did not work?
 
OK, let's engage in a thought exercise here. Let's say that the NRA-ILA proposed a preemptive omnibus gun bill that raised the age for "assault weapons" to 21, banned bump stocks, and provided for some form of universal background checks (with safeguards to prevent de facto registration), but also removed silencers and SBR's from the NFA, repealed the Hughes Amendment, and provided nationwide concealed-carry reciprocity. (In other words, a theoretical "reasonable compromise.") What would be the reaction to such a move?

Two things are absolutely predictable:
1. The antigunners would have nothing to do with the proposal. Therefore it would make no headway in the Senate.
2. The rank and file NRA members would stage a revolt, saying that the NRA leadership was a "sellout." LaPierre and Cox would be forced to resign. Never mind the positive changes from such a deal.

All the players are thus trapped in their hard line positions. In the current polarized political atmosphere, there is no middle ground.
It would be interesting to find out who is footing the bill for the buses to shuttle these kids to Tallahassee today. Soros? Bloomberg?
Regardless, they're nothing more than the pawns of sociopaths.
 
We need a SCOTUS ruling protecting the owning of semi-automatic rifles, specifically the AR15 since they will be going after them hard this time and they are already getting ready to push legislation for an AWB again.

PLEASE STOP. the last thing we need is a court ruling on each individual firearm.
 
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