rpenmanparker
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Okay, I understand your position. But what is wrong with them as I have described them updated? Why are they not viable for military/LE usage.
The 1911 is still being used!
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cheygriz
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Robert, the military has never allowed so-called condition one carry, and never will.
I carried one in the 60s. Condition three.
That's a ridiculous comparison. Those guns are objectively worse in performance than modern guns. In terms of pure shooting performance, 1911 and their derivatives are generally better than the stuff that tends to be made by the lowest bidder.
They're going to be more finicky and more expensive. That's the reason.
I think the analogy above to using race cars as fleet vehicles is apt. You can de-tune a 1911 to make it more tolerant of lousy conditions, but then most of the performance advantage goes away... and it's still pretty expensive to make.
For military use, expensive and finicky are not ideal characteristics for what are secondary/last ditch weapons. For private users who can pay attention to their gun's setup and can afford a higher grade of fitting... no big deal.
rpenmanparker
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I hear you, but don’t see it myself. I feel like folks are driving the 1911 situation while looking in the rear view mirror. Thanks for the input.
cheygriz
member
No, Dave, it's a very valid comparison.
we all like to believe that our favorite gun, car or whatever is the best thing in the world, and will never be replaced by something newer and better. But that's wrong.
we all like to believe that our favorite gun, car or whatever is the best thing in the world, and will never be replaced by something newer and better. But that's wrong.
No, it's not. Look at the guns winning in the divisions of USPSA where 1911-derived guns are allowed, and you will see them vastly over-represented compared to other guns. Vastly. They win on "race day" more often than anything else.
Note: I don't shoot a 1911-derived thing in competition. Which, in my division (limited) makes me an oddball. Mainly, to be honest, because I don't want to sink $4k into my gamer gun. Making high-performance 1911/2011 things isn't cheap.
Note: I don't shoot a 1911-derived thing in competition. Which, in my division (limited) makes me an oddball. Mainly, to be honest, because I don't want to sink $4k into my gamer gun. Making high-performance 1911/2011 things isn't cheap.
cheygriz
member
Yes, Dave, they do win the combat matches. and one of the main reasons they do is the rule book. Ever since Jeff Cooper wrote the rule book to give the single action and the .45 cartridge a big advantage, they've been winning.
Eliminate his absurd "power factor" nonsense based on momentum and they will start losing.
If I can write the rules, I can make anyone win.
mgmorden
Member
1911 derived designs dominate in Steel Challenge too, where power factor isn't taken into account. They also dominate Open division, which despite having "power factor", 9mm is commonly used - and actually, .45 ACP is generally used nowhere in any USPSA sport. You might find the rare person shooting it but it's generally 9mm in Production/PCC/CO, 9mm/.38 Super (or SuperComp) in Open, and .40S&W everywhere else.
That's kind of the point though: in a competition environment they rock like the precision machines they are. However, those are race guns costing thousands of dollars, being ran by shooters who clean them meticulously, keep a bag of spare parts handy with them in a match (with most also having a backup gun in their bag) and who will run the snot out of that gun every weekend and have it to a gunsmith in a heartbeat if it so much as hiccups.
1911's are GREAT guns for people who can commit to them. As duty guns though? No, there are better designs out there.
There's so much wrong here it's tough to know where to begin. Outside of single stack (a now pretty small and dwindling division that does require an old-school 1911), absolutely nobody shoots .45 anymore. In Limited, everyone shoots 40. Most of them do it from a 2011 built to shoot 40. But any 40-shooting gun gets scored exactly the same. In open, absolutely nobody shoots 45. Everyone shoots either 9mm major or 38 super. Again, they mostly do it out of 2011's, but other guns are allowed.
I don't know what you mean by giving "single action... a big advantage." Single action guns have a big advantage because they are easier to shoot well. There are some divisions where they are prohibited (production, carry optics)... but everywhere they are allowed, people tend to shoot them. I don't know what rule advantage you're thinking of.
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No matter what your main gun is, it is a wise move to always have a backup gun and or spare parts in your bag.
You can spend thousands traveling to a major match between fees, hotels, airfare/gas, etc. etc. Seems rather silly so pack it up and go home kicking rocks, for such a simple reason.
rpenmanparker
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I don’t see how you could be a serious competitor and go to compete somewhere without a full backup set of equipment.
Officers'Wife
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OK, I'm just a tulala but here is my take on the subject...
When the Americans came to colonize the Pinoy, the officers carried 38 revolvers. They lost a lot of officers. When the Americans came to liberate the Pinoy, they carried 45 caliber 1911s and the Japanese left. And when the Pinoy started carrying those 1911's they got their islands back.
When the Americans came to colonize the Pinoy, the officers carried 38 revolvers. They lost a lot of officers. When the Americans came to liberate the Pinoy, they carried 45 caliber 1911s and the Japanese left. And when the Pinoy started carrying those 1911's they got their islands back.
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mgmorden
Member
Well, yes, but the devils in the details. The 1911 offered a small, but still real capacity advantage over those revolvers. 8 rounds vs 6 is a nice increase. Modern duty handguns in 9mm carry 17 rounds which is a HUGE increase over the 1911.
Secondly though, the ".38s" that were being carried in that war were not .38 Specials - they were Colt New Army's in .38 Long. Typical energy delivery from one of those rounds is in the ballpark of 175 ft/lbs.
Now, the .45 ACP closer to the 400 ft/lbs range. Over double the energy. 9mm Luger - 360 ft/lbs or so (obviously for both this is variable and both can go a lot higher with +P rounds). Slightly less than the .45 but in the same ballpark and nowhere close to .38 Long.
Bottom line, trying to imply that the modern service handgun shares any deficiencies with the Colt New Army is not even an apples to oranges comparison - it's more like and apples to cucumbers comparison.
rpenmanparker
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I am ignorant regarding both the terms, tulala and Pinoy.
Officers'Wife
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I don't recall making any such comparison. Just that the Pinoy are more likely to stick to what they know works for them. Now add the minor detail that the 1911 can be manufactured with tooling that the skill sets are more cheaply acquired. In a land where labor is cheap and the population tends to be poor this gives the islands a double service.
Zerodefect
member
Wut? 1911's aren't competing too hot around here. Tiny grip, bad mags, no capacity. They get by in ESP, but they have a weakness for every one of thier strengths.
2011's, CZ's, Glock 34 & 35. Those are the big three for competition around here. I guess you can call a 2011 a 1911. But I don't.
And CCP is completely randomly mixed, often just our CCW's, as it should be. Full length 1911 frames have been banned from that. Glock 19 is about the max height now.
2011's, CZ's, Glock 34 & 35. Those are the big three for competition around here. I guess you can call a 2011 a 1911. But I don't.
And CCP is completely randomly mixed, often just our CCW's, as it should be. Full length 1911 frames have been banned from that. Glock 19 is about the max height now.
Don't forget Bullseye Pistol! The rules were written around the 1911, it is still the most common centerfire and 45ACP in Bullseye competition. It can be built into an exceptionally accurate pistol with a great trigger. Guys shoot exceptional groups with the things. Sometimes I see things that might be "real" improvements:
This shooter/gunsmith got fixed any potential looseness between the barrel and barrel hood.
Officers'Wife
Member
The meaning is slightly different, since it's a feminine noun it means a silly woman.
mgmorden
Member
Well, I admittedly don't shoot IDPA, but in general in USPSA when I the "1911 based designs" that are dominating are 2011's. Aside from Single-stack (a division specifically made for the base 1911) old-school 1911's aren't really being used - it's all 2011's.
That said, a 2011 is basically just a double-stack 1911 with a polymer grip.
The phrase I used was 1911-derived. And 2011’s are definitely that.
Mauser lover
Member
Good grief people!
Almost every successful locked-breech semi-auto pistol out there is a 1911 derivative! There aren't very many rotating barrel, short recoil pistols out there, and very few gas operated pistols (and REALLY few long recoil pistols)!
Is a GLOCK a 1911 derivative? Yes.
Single stack? No
Hammer? No
Single action? No
Steel frame? No
Safety? No.
Beautifully designed gracefully curved aesthetics and ergonomics? No (give me a second to find my asbestos suit...)
Swinging link? (in my mind, this is actually the biggest difference between a 1911 and a GLOCK).... wait for it.... NO!
How is it a derivative? It's a Browning-designed tilting breech! Without SOMEONE figuring out that tilting breech, we'd be stuck with rotating barrels (which are probably conceptually fine, they just haven't taken off). And yes, this is definitely the most important facet of handgun design. We've got to contain the pressure somehow.
Just because we (well... Browning) figured out that it is better to not use the swinging link and use an inclined plane instead to lower the breech doesn't mean that the concept of locking the barrel to the slide was new to... well... anyone after Browning. This guy even patented the slide on a pistol (I know, not the 1911, but still one of his designs). I can't find any earlier successful semi-auto pistols that use a tilting breech. If you know of any, please tell me. Really, I want to know. 'Cause I'm a nerd.
So... are we are upset that the Sig won the army trials? Well...
Are we upset that there are other pistols that do well in competitions?
Are we upset that some people like ugly chunks of plastic for carry/competition/duty?
They are all 1911s! Just in various stages of un-1911-liness. Grandkids, you might say. If someone has an earlier design for the tilting breech I need to know about, I'll call them cousins three or four times removed instead of grandkids.
BUT! Until you take away the tilting breech, you are going to have a tough time convincing me that it is not a 1911 derivative.
This whole thread is pointless. But good on the Philippines for using domestic industry. A society that doesn't produce something falls into insignificance and dependence on others.
Almost every successful locked-breech semi-auto pistol out there is a 1911 derivative! There aren't very many rotating barrel, short recoil pistols out there, and very few gas operated pistols (and REALLY few long recoil pistols)!
Is a GLOCK a 1911 derivative? Yes.
Single stack? No
Hammer? No
Single action? No
Steel frame? No
Safety? No.
Beautifully designed gracefully curved aesthetics and ergonomics? No (give me a second to find my asbestos suit...)
Swinging link? (in my mind, this is actually the biggest difference between a 1911 and a GLOCK).... wait for it.... NO!
How is it a derivative? It's a Browning-designed tilting breech! Without SOMEONE figuring out that tilting breech, we'd be stuck with rotating barrels (which are probably conceptually fine, they just haven't taken off). And yes, this is definitely the most important facet of handgun design. We've got to contain the pressure somehow.
Just because we (well... Browning) figured out that it is better to not use the swinging link and use an inclined plane instead to lower the breech doesn't mean that the concept of locking the barrel to the slide was new to... well... anyone after Browning. This guy even patented the slide on a pistol (I know, not the 1911, but still one of his designs). I can't find any earlier successful semi-auto pistols that use a tilting breech. If you know of any, please tell me. Really, I want to know. 'Cause I'm a nerd.
So... are we are upset that the Sig won the army trials? Well...
Are we upset that there are other pistols that do well in competitions?
Are we upset that some people like ugly chunks of plastic for carry/competition/duty?
They are all 1911s! Just in various stages of un-1911-liness. Grandkids, you might say. If someone has an earlier design for the tilting breech I need to know about, I'll call them cousins three or four times removed instead of grandkids.
BUT! Until you take away the tilting breech, you are going to have a tough time convincing me that it is not a 1911 derivative.
This whole thread is pointless. But good on the Philippines for using domestic industry. A society that doesn't produce something falls into insignificance and dependence on others.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
So, Mauser lover, tell us how you really feel... 
Mauser lover
Member
So, Mauser lover, tell us how you really feel...
Like I need to go design a rotating barrel pistol that will actually sell well.
It's probably not ever going to happen though...
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