Is jhp overkill in 45 acp?

paulsj said:

Now we can get them Winchester commemorative 1941-1945 230GR ball loads. The case head is marked m1911 and there is also very nice Chinese-made pine box. How kool is that....KOOL AIIIID!

Click to expand...

I thought you were joking. Turns out you weren't. Kinda neat but not for me.

This question made me think a timewarp back to the late 60's or early 70's had occurred ....

John Joseph said:

Not exactly.
Aside from one treaty specifying humanitarian reasons, the military uses FMJ for reliability. Considering the thousands, even hundreds of thousands of different weapons, magazines and the conditions military ammo needs to function, FMJ performs the one size fits all protocol. LEOs and CCWs aren't so restricted

Click to expand...

...everyone has an opinion. As for reliability, modern JSP and JHP, in modern military firearms are just as durable and functions just as well as FMJ.

Also.......https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/u-s-military-moves-from-full-metal-jacket-to-hollowpoint-rounds/

"I am driven to wonder if jhp bullets are overkill for self defense."

Wow.

I sure as hell won’t take the chance on underkill.....

I want the biggest hole for caliber that I can put in someone trying to do me harm.

brewer12345 said:

Heh, guess I knew this would be controversial. Ok, jhp it is. Based on the linked ballistic tests I will be looking for gold dots or golden saber.

The comment about practice is spot on, but I have to laugh. I have had to work to be proficient with a 38 snub. A full size duty pistol is so much easier to shoot it is amazing.

Click to expand...

Not that I'm an expert but when I carry a 1911 it's loaded with Gold Dots. They are very accurate in my 1911.

AZAndy said:

It's probably enough, yes, but I carry HST in mine. Luckygunners' gel tests used four layers of fabric to simulate clothing, and the HST expanded to .85" with 14" of penetration. That's good enough for the likes of me.

Click to expand...

Yep, kind of puts the idea of using a .45ACP FMJFN--that is likely to penetrate 30 inches or more--to rest for me, too. Of course, it is hard to go wrong with the HST in any caliber.

481 said:

Yep, kind of puts the idea of using a .45ACP FMJFN--that is likely to penetrate 30 inches or more--to rest for me, too. Of course, it is hard to go wrong with the HST in any caliber.

Click to expand...

Who currently produces a 230gr FMJ-FN?

Nevermind.

I'd worry more about if your pistol can handle the HPs. The 1911 was primarily designed with ball ammo in mind.
In fact, JMB built the pistol around the ammo. You may want to run a few boxes of that hot-poo HP ammo thru
your gun, before taking any chances.

JHP, just for combating over penetration is important.

I don't want to hurt anyone that I'm not trying to stop. Keep the bullets in the bad guy, only.

roo_ster said:

Who currently produces a 230gr FMJ-FN?

Click to expand...

Winchester does.



See here:

https://www.wholesalehunter.com/Product/DetailsBySKU/11056463

brewer12345 said:

Perhaps the word overkill is.the wrong one. I guess I wonder if one gives up too much penetration with a jhp. I suppose the mag holds 13 rounds so I could always alternate types of shell.

If I really expected trouble I would have a 12 gauge stoked with 00 buck.

Click to expand...

I have a 12 ga with 2 #4 shot then 00 next. I think the #4 will do and hope I never have to find out. What sits next to me by my bed is .45 ACP and I'm accurate with it. Both my .45s carry Liberty Civil Defense JHPs. Expensive and I hope I never have to use it in self defense. I'm confident it will stop a threat.

If some creep is trying to kill you there is no such thing as "overkill".

jmr40 said:

I've read that quote, or something very similar, dozens of times over the years and the facts don't agree. All of the typical service handguns 9mm and up tend to be effective the vast majority of the time in actual shootings with good JHP ammo. With old school FMJ they tend to be effective about 2/3 of the time. Caliber seems to be a non-issue and equal shot placement with a rifle is only slightly more effective.

What a rifle does is improve accuracy and range, but at extreme close range the ability to use a handgun with one hand outweighs that.

The best judge of what is effective is a handgun round that you can shoot accurately that will penetrate around 12" in gel along with good expansion. Expansion is good, and more is better unless it starts to limit penetration.

Click to expand...

Mn Fats said:

No way. So 10mm, 45 acp, 357 mag, 45 colt, are all "under-powered"? They are service handgun cartridges. Too many variables with your statement.

Click to expand...

Compared to a .30-06 and a 12 ga. buckshot load they are.




GR.

Garandimal said:

Compared to a .30-06 and a 12 ga. buckshot load they are.




GR.

Click to expand...

Yeah, its the lack of hydostatic shock. Even the big magnum revolvers dont always provide this either - some calibers can. You mean my 45 acp is not as powerful as a 458 lott?

Deus Machina said:

No.
If you need to use it, you need things to stop now. A bigger hole is more likely to do that.
No one ever ended up in a gunfight wishing for less gun.

Click to expand...

That’s very true. I’d go further and say you get the fight you get, so it makes sense to be as prepared as you can be.

Anchorite said:

That’s very true. I’d go further and say you get the fight you get, so it makes sense to be as prepared as you can be.

Click to expand...

I never heard of a man regretting he overkilled his opponent.

Don't forget that the Jhp's are just plain made better. Way more reliable. The nickle chrome plating on some of my Win black box, and Speer ammo is so slick it feels oiled.

Since I shoot my carry ammo every month, my reload mags are Fmj to save cost. I don't think .45 fmj is prone to overpen. That's .40 and .357sigs problem. Maybe 9mm +p+, if your luck is bad.

brewer12345 said:

I just bought a Springfield xdm in 45 and after shooting paper with it using flat point bullets, I am driven to wonder if jhp bullets are overkill for self defense. I saw gel tests of hornady factory ammo showing .75" expansion and 15 inch expansion. This is fineand well, but it seems deflection off bone or heavy clothes could reduce penetration. Is making a 45 caliber hole with a big meplat and likely complete penetration enough?

Click to expand...

Well, it's already been deemed "reasonable" to use a 12GA double barrel shotgun in self defense even by some of the worst "gun control" proponents on or with the far-left. A 12GA slug might only be .71" di. but it's soft lead and would likely expand. I've seen slugs go clean through gel blocks, so you should be more than alright with ye olde .45ACP double-tap. Don't shoot 'em if they gave up or stopped attacking, because that'd be murder. Personally I'd go with a light, +P fragmenting HP. Less chance of over-penetration, an apparent happy medium between pain compliance and lethality, and shotgun-like affect in the intended target without spread outside the target. Then again, I'm a city guy, my apartment has thin walls and the neighbors, their kids and dog are right next door. I feel the need to walk a fine line, even though my State laws allow for some immunity from "collateral damage" in defense of self or another. Depends on your situation.

No armed robber, terrorist or generic nutcase EVER said to him or herself, "I'd better carry FMJs because I'm worried about 'overkill'..."

The idea that I would or should care more about the welfare of somebody willing to slaughter me and other people than I care about my own is more alien to me than anything any conceivable extra-terrestrial could possibly come up with.

My Commander eats 230 gr SXT +P like candy.
Shoots small groups too.

I don't want highly frangible, in case I gotta try to push em through some stuff to get to the bad guy (like corner of wall). Maybe auto glass or door.

Heightened risk at our place due to the occupation of a family member. Assume the worst.

Hopefully, you will only have pressed the trigger because you believe someone's life would be in serious jeopardy if you didn't. While I have NO experience in such matters, I believe that under those circumstances, one cannot stop the threat quickly enough or certainly enough to satisfy. So, 'overkill' is meaningless, and any steps you can take to ensure the bullet stops in the target is just being a responsible citizen. The JHP is the best available solution to these problems and responsibilities, IMO.

My training at Sig Academy strenuously emphasized, however, that we never shoot to kill. We shoot to stop the threat, 'and this is how we do that'. If two to the upper torso happens to result in the demise of the threat, that wasn't the objective.

Bongo Boy said:

My training at Sig Academy strenuously emphasized, however, that we never shoot to kill. We shoot to stop the threat, 'and this is how we do that'. If two to the upper torso happens to result in the demise of the threat, that wasn't the objective.

Click to expand...

Most appropriate ways to stop a deadly force threat involve a relatively good chance of causing the immediate or near-term death of that threat.

If the threat doesn't like that, he or she ought to reconsider BEING a threat.

I thought my .357 was s good SD weapon. After I took it into the deer woods six or eight times, and used it on 120lb to 160lb animals...... I bought a .45.
Bigger holes are better.
I like jhp for everything but paper.