What’s with the 300 blackout stigma?

Elkins45 said:

I'm not sure who recouped any marketing costs from me.

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Not specifically from you, but from quite a few people who read the terms "subsonic", "designed for suppressors" etc. from any number of ads hovering around in gun rags and web sites for the better part of last couple of decades and buy factory ammo without realizing there are alternatives. Both (re)load(ing)- and caliber-wise.
I just moved a few 1000rd crates of 7.62x39 brass cased subsonic ammo I had bought a few years ago and they still had €199 ($.22/rd) stickers on them. Can't help thinking of MSRP:s of .300BO subsonics so many people buy these days. That's where the money is, regardless of what we reloaders manage to accomplish on a proverbial shoestring budget.

Still, no more Whispers/BO:s for me for now. Been there, done that in the 90's, wasn't impressed enough to keep the hardware, and I'm a usually a hoarder when it comes to guns, ammo and dies. Subsonic .50 Beowulf is a bit more impressive as far as suppressed AR:s are concerned...

Show me a 7.62x39 with a fast enough twist to run heavy bullets +200gr.

This ain't the 1990's. Bullet technology has grown by leaps and bounds, especially when it comes to expanding bullets for subsonic use.

CraigC said:

Show me a 7.62x39 with a fast enough twist to run heavy bullets +200gr.

This ain't the 1990's. Bullet technology has grown by leaps and bounds, especially when it comes to expanding bullets for subsonic use.

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This ain't the 2000's anymore, barrel makers are making barrels in all sorts of configurations.

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/gm-m46-16-5-7-62x39-mm-ar15-experimental-1-8-twist-limited-quantity/

https://faxonfirearms.com/18-akm-dmr-pattern-7-62x39-1-8-twist-nitride/

CraigC said:

Show me a 7.62x39 with a fast enough twist to run heavy bullets +200gr.

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Sure. To which length and profile would you like the .311 diameter blank cut?

CraigC said:

1-3. The BO was designed for subsonic use with suppressors. When you limit velocity, the only way to gain terminal effect is to increase diameter and mass. This should be obvious.

4. Ammo is no more expensive than anything else that is not 5.56, 7.62x39 or 9mm. If we're holding it against the cartridge that it's not as cheap to shoot as 5.56, that dooms 99.99% of the cartridges available and is absolutely asinine.

7. Last I checked, subsonic .22Short is good for squirrels and such but not much else. Show me a .45ACP rifle that can also cover 250yds with supersonic loads.

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I think this is why I haven’t found the niche for mine. Subs the 458 and 450 have lots more power and little loss in effective range, supers and things like the 6.5 Grendel have a lot more legs. There is just not a lot that it’s going to do for me unless I don’t know what I am going to do and have an optic on it with two different zeros and both kinds of ammunition on me and that just doesn’t happen much. Then again I didn’t put myself into a “only one rifle” situation.

That said, if I get a hog this weekend, it will be with my 300 shooting 125 Noslers super. Just because it’s the next rifle in the cue.

Maybe I'm odd, but I find the 300AAC pretty dang satisfying in supersonic form.

It uses standardized bolt faces and magazines and other such things with 223 / 5.56 NATO, and that has real value to someone that builds / repairs rifles (both AR's and bolt guns). The brass can be formed from a limitless supply of 223 / 5.56 NATO brass. It shares a broad swath of target / varmint bullets that are also used across other 308-cal chamberings, and is quite economical to reload. It makes nice big easy-to-spot holes in paper targets, and rings steel at the range without excess damage to the steel. It has a mild recoil that is suitable for all-day use and is not so intimidating that it can't be shot by novices, children, and so forth. It maintains 1000+ft/lb of energy out past 250 yards, and a 200 yard zero equates to 2.5" up at 100 yards and 2.5" down at 250 yards - a 5" MPBR across that 250 yard effective hunting range. It makes a dandy self-defense round for home / farm use; it's essentially 'pre-expanded 5.56 NATO' with all of the other virtues associated with intermediate rifle chamberings for HD/SD.

I understand that there are chamberings that can do -some- of these things better. But the 300 AAC is a bit of a goldilocks round; it does all of those things acceptably well. I have no quarrel using other chamberings for the use cases that the 300AAC cannot satisfy, and using 300AAC as a general-purpose utility round. If somebody doesn't have kids, or doesn't like to spend a full day at the rifle range, or doesn't reload multiple 308-cal chamberings, or hunts large game / takes field shots at 300+ yards regularly, or doesn't shoot enough to need to regularly rebuild / repair their rifles - then the 300AAC probably isn't the answer. And that's all OK.

<*(((>< said:

This ain't the 2000's anymore, barrel makers are making barrels in all sorts of configurations.

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/gm-m46-16-5-7-62x39-mm-ar15-experimental-1-8-twist-limited-quantity/

https://faxonfirearms.com/18-akm-dmr-pattern-7-62x39-1-8-twist-nitride/

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hq said:

Sure. To which length and profile would you like the .311 diameter blank cut?

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Exactly! One must procure a special order fast twist barrel for a platform not designed for the cartridge or cut one from premium stock to equal what's possible with the .300BO right out of the box. For what gain, exactly? Just to be different or contrary? With a .308 bore you're still using the same bullets at the same velocity but went to a whole lot more trouble to do it.

Further, if you alter the bore dimensions and twist rate, you're essentially shooting a wildcat.

jmorris said:

I think this is why I haven’t found the niche for mine. Subs the 458 and 450 have lots more power and little loss in effective range, supers and things like the 6.5 Grendel have a lot more legs. There is just not a lot that it’s going to do for me unless I don’t know what I am going to do and have an optic on it with two different zeros and both kinds of ammunition on me and that just doesn’t happen much. Then again I didn’t put myself into a “only one rifle” situation.

That said, if I get a hog this weekend, it will be with my 300 shooting 125 Noslers super. Just because it’s the next rifle in the cue.

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Yes but you're talking two completely different cartridges to replace one. One doesn't have to settle for one rifle to appreciate the dual roles of the .300BO. It's ironic that no one argues with the .30-06's legendary ability to handle everything from mice to T-rex but that understanding does not extend to other cartridges that do other things appreciably well.

Yes but you're talking two completely different cartridges to replace one.

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I can snap on a super upper or push out two pins and snap on a sub upper easier on the same trip than I can change out mags and rezero for the different ammunition but yeah completely different and better suited to the sub/super role. Like I said a few posts back the jack of all trades, master of none is the 300, doesn’t mean I hate it or even dislike it, just is what it is.

The 300 blk has made me more money than any other round though.

mcb said:

And 300 BO runs direct impingement vs 45 ACP blow-back.

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Blow-back would actually be an advantage. The one undesirable thing about D/I is that it 'poops where it feeds' with each and every shot. Admittedly...that should present no problem with the limited number of rounds fired in the average outing. Just be sure to clean the bolt and carrier really well after each use.

jmorris said:

I can snap on a super upper or push out two pins and snap on a sub upper easier on the same trip than I can change out mags and rezero for the different ammunition but yeah completely different and better suited to the sub/super role. Like I said a few posts back the jack of all trades, master of none is the 300, doesn’t mean I hate it or even dislike it, just is what it is.

The 300 blk has made me more money than any other round though.

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And you can swap your optic quicker, easier and cheaper than any of that.

BOTH is the whole point. There are better cartridges for subsonic OR supersonic use but plain few that do well at BOTH. Same case, same OAL, even the same powder.

CraigC said:

Exactly! One must procure a special order fast twist barrel for a platform not designed for the cartridge or cut one from premium stock to equal what's possible with the .300BO right out of the box. For what gain, exactly? Just to be different or contrary?

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Maybe for using a dedicated rifle in intermediate caliber round loaded subsonic with "heavy" bullets, which in itself is highly counter-intuitive? A much larger case full power rifle round works for occasional subsonic use just as well (or badly, take your pick) and for dedicated subsonic long gun - or upper, for that matter - straight-walled cartridges in general reign supreme over any and anything bottlenecked.

It's really a compromise. If you want to shoot subsonics regularly a fast twist rate wreaks havoc on accuracy and barrel life on occasional full power rounds rendering them more or less useless. If you want a dedicated subsonic rifle it's advisable to go with a far larger diameter bore than .30 and far, far heavier bullets than 200gr. If you just want to shoot subsonics every now and then any full power rifle caliber can be loaded subsonic very easily, with fast pistol powders and extremely reduced loads.

So... it's either/or according to one's preference. IME, the BO is attempting to be a jack of all (off-the-shelf) trades, ending up as a master of none, hence pretty much pointless for anything I use long guns for. Some like or even love it so YMMV.

Flintknapper said:

Blow-back would actually be an advantage. The one undesirable thing about D/I is that it 'poops where it feeds' with each and every shot. Admittedly...that should present no problem with the limited number of rounds fired in the average outing. Just be sure to clean the bolt and carrier really well after each use.

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Blowback actions 'poops where it feeds' too. What is driving that big heavy bolt back? Pressure from propellant gases in the chamber using the case as a piston. Blow-back and direct impingement are both fairly dirty actions. They both get noticeable dirtier running them suppressed. I am not worried about the dirt in either action. I have put thousands of round through both 5.56 and 308 direct impingement guns without cleaning them, just adding CLP as needed. Blowback requires more reciprocating mass and often stiffer recoils springs than direct impingement.

"It's really a compromise. If you want to shoot subsonics regularly a fast twist rate wreaks havoc on accuracy and barrel life on occasional full power rounds rendering them more or less useless. "

ROTFLMAO.
Hyperbole much, I wouldn't call 1 to 1.5 MOA exactly useless.

mcb said:

Blowback actions 'poops where it feeds' too. What is driving that big heavy bolt back? Pressure from propellant gases in the chamber using the case as a piston. Blow-back and direct impingement are both fairly dirty actions. They both get noticeable dirtier running them suppressed. I am not worried about the dirt in either action. I have put thousands of round through both 5.56 and 308 direct impingement guns without cleaning them, just adding CLP as needed. Blowback requires more reciprocating mass and often stiffer recoils springs than direct impingement.

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Agree 100%.

My 9mm AR is by far dirtier running than any of my DI guns. It also recoils more than my .223/5.56 guns. Couple key things I've found with DI, choose your powder wisely and an adjustable gas block helps keep your action cleaner.

Chuck R. said:

Agree 100%.

My 9mm AR is by far dirtier running than any of my DI guns. It also recoils more than my .223/5.56 guns. Couple key things I've found with DI, choose your powder wisely and an adjustable gas block helps keep your action cleaner.

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Mine too.

hq said:

If you want to shoot subsonics regularly a fast twist rate wreaks havoc on accuracy

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It actually doesn’t. I can point to at least a half a dozen 1:8” rifles in my house that are consistently MOA or better with 125 grain loads. Within the effective range of the chambering, that’s more than good enough.

To be fair, my last three builds have used a one in 10” twist rate because they are intended to be used solely for supersonic loads. But I did that in the interest of infinitesimally small gains in velocity, and not because of any observable concern with accuracy or barrel life.

mavracer said:

Let's look from a different angle since it was originally concieved not to replace the M4 but the MP5 9mm

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Nope. There was a minor push for the idea years ago, but the round was already in existence & it was not the military looking for it. More like a silencer company trying to market with hopes someone would pick up on it.

CraigC said:

1-3. The BO was designed for subsonic use with suppressors. When you limit velocity, the only way to gain terminal effect is to increase diameter and mass. This should be obviou

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Once again, no. This was a later use and marketing. The round was originally developed as a hypersonic, but didn't have enough popularity to make it out of wildcat. It was slowed down in various forms, the AAC renamed and marketed it to match up with machine guns and suppressors they were making.

It doesn't make it bad. Just don't go thinking this was somethingg the army desperately wanted or developed. That's mall ninja lore and aint true.

mavracer said:

Let's look from a different angle since it was originally concieved not to replace the M4 but the MP5 9mm

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That’s actually a good way to look at 300BO in a more positive light. In a subgun role it would be pretty slick. But in the AR which is where it decided to live it’s still pretty BLAH.

rbernie said:

It actually doesn’t. I can point to at least a half a dozen 1:8” rifles

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Original full power 123gr 7.62x39 was spec'd for 1:9.45" twist rate. Twist vs. bullet weight/length is always an approximation for stabilizing a variety of suitable bullets with as few ill effects as possible. OTOH, even a 200gr subsonic bullet from a long gun is still very modest as far as energy and momentum are concerned, so it might be appropriate to talk about a reasonably well working compromise for given range of bullet weights and velocities?

Twist rate requirements are largely driven by bullet length, although we commonly shortcut that and equate it with bullet weight. There are many twist rate calculators on the Internet that one can use to determine what twist rate is most appropriate for a given bullet length and muzzle velocity.

Chuck R. said:

Agree 100%.

My 9mm AR is by far dirtier running than any of my DI guns. It also recoils more than my .223/5.56 guns. Couple key things I've found with DI, choose your powder wisely and an adjustable gas block helps keep your action cleaner.

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For those who reload...you have the luxury of choosing powders (to some extent). Some definitely burn cleaner and more completely than others. This holds true for either action style (DI or BB). Adjustable gas block gets the nod for 'tuning' the cycling of a semi-auto, would not argue that. I use one on my .458 SOCOM and shoot everything from a 100 grain pill (yes 100) to 540 grain hard cast. Barrel twist 1:14. The AGB helps facilitate that.

illinoisburt said:

Once again, no. This was a later use and marketing. The round was originally developed as a hypersonic, but didn't have enough popularity to make it out of wildcat. It was slowed down in various forms, the AAC renamed and marketed it to match up with machine guns and suppressors they were making.

It doesn't make it bad. Just don't go thinking this was somethingg the army desperately wanted or developed. That's mall ninja lore and aint true.

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I'm well aware of its history. From JD Jones:

"The 300 Whisper® was the first of the series, and, contrary to what you may have read about it, the fact of the matter is the cartridge was designed as a multi-purpose cartridge from the beginning. Its design parameters, in addition to the ballistics quoted above, were that it must be capable of being used in the AR-15/M-16 family of rifles, Contenders and bolt action rifles as well as being easily suppressed. I know that because I invented it. It revolutionized the tactical suppressed sub-sonic field in controllability in full auto, power and accuracy. It has been very successful and has gained wide acceptance as a hunting round for mid-size game, such as deer, and has probably taken a wider variety of game than any other handgun cartridge in the same time span."

hq said:

Maybe for using a dedicated rifle in intermediate caliber round loaded subsonic with "heavy" bullets, which in itself is highly counter-intuitive? A much larger case full power rifle round works for occasional subsonic use just as well (or badly, take your pick) and for dedicated subsonic long gun - or upper, for that matter - straight-walled cartridges in general reign supreme over any and anything bottlenecked.

It's really a compromise. If you want to shoot subsonics regularly a fast twist rate wreaks havoc on accuracy and barrel life on occasional full power rounds rendering them more or less useless. If you want a dedicated subsonic rifle it's advisable to go with a far larger diameter bore than .30 and far, far heavier bullets than 200gr. If you just want to shoot subsonics every now and then any full power rifle caliber can be loaded subsonic very easily, with fast pistol powders and extremely reduced loads.

So... it's either/or according to one's preference. IME, the BO is attempting to be a jack of all (off-the-shelf) trades, ending up as a master of none, hence pretty much pointless for anything I use long guns for. Some like or even love it so YMMV.

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If you want to claim the 7.62x39 does everything the .300BO does, then you need one of those fast twist custom barrels. As I said, for what gain???

Sure a larger case like the .308 works better for supersonic use and can use the same heavy bullets with subsonic loads but does it have the twist rate for it? They're usually fine for subsonic loads using standard weight bullets but not for anything heavy. Does it fit in a standard AR rifle?

As I've already said, big bores surely work better for subs because they don't have to expand to be effective. Problem there is that they don't shoot as flat at distance with supers and there is a considerable recoil penalty.

No, the fast twist does not wreak havoc on accuracy with lighter supers, at least not within the .300's effective range.

Everything is a compromise. As it always seems to be, you can come up with lots of alternatives that do this or that better but they all have caveats, shortcomings and pitfalls. A push in one direction results in a pull in another and in the effort to denigrate the .300BO, those glaring drawbacks are glossed-over.

What is the one thing that the 300 blk does better than any other round that has ever existed?

This will be my thought tonight.

CraigC said:

If you want to claim the 7.62x39 does everything the .300BO does

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I don't really need to make such claims. It just does more. Well-proven and widely used as a subsonic round - hey, even my early 90's service rifle, Sako RK95/M92S has a suppressor - it exceeds the legal minimum of 1700J/1254ft-lbs at 100m/110yd with a 123gr or heavier JSP for Finnish class 3 game (whitetail, fallow deer, red deer, sika deer etc.) with factory ammo, surplus ammo is dirt cheap, common and plentiful when you can't be bothered to reload for plinking.

If you really want to select a barrel twist common with the BO off the shelf, any gunsmith can turn one from a blank if need be. I don't really see the point, though. If you want a full power + subsonic combo rifle at ~200gr .30 caliber bullet weight range, regardless of whether you shoot factory ammo or reload, .308Win wipes the floor with either and has done so for decades. My R25 groups 1" at 150m/165yd with Lapua B416 200gr FMJBT subsonics like a clockwork with Jaki Super Classic reflex/telescopic can and reaches out to 400-ish yards at comparable <MOA accuracy with off-the-shelf Hornady 165gr GMX Superformance International. That's pretty much the only suppressed, sub- & supersonic rifle caliber AR I've realized I need, or want for that matter. Its OEM 1:10 twist stabilizes even 220gr reloads nicely, so I wouldn't imagine identical twist on my Mini 30 has any problems doing the same, even though ~180gr are the heaviest bullets I've loaded for it so far.

As far as intermediate rounds and rifle designs other than the AR are concerned, I think I've made my point rather clear by now. I've experimented with the BO myself, and concluded that it doesn't do a thing for me that other rounds wouldn't do better so I gave up on it for a solid reason. And it doesn't even have anywhere near the case capacity for duplicating my favorite, hot, long range 7.62x39 compression loads either.

Like I've said a few times, if you like it and think it fits the bill for whatever you want to use it for, go for it. It has the undeniable advantage of feeding through regular AR mags and magwell if you don't want a dedicated AK mag lower. That's about it.