Is jhp overkill in 45 acp?
- Thread starter brewer12345
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Deanimator
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Here, if I shoot you after you try to run me over and stab me while screaming "Allahu akhbar!" you can certainly sue me. You can also certainly not collect a thin dime if the shooting was ruled justifiable. It's awfully tough to find a lawyer to file a frivolous lawsuit on a contingent basis when even if he WINS, he gets 1/3 of NOTHING.
Deanimator
Member
And unless I'm mistaken, Fish muddled his own defense by carrying handloads which obfuscated the circumstances of the shooting. I carry NOTHING but factory for self-defense.
Deanimator
Member
Depending upon where the shooting takes place, the civil case is FAR from inevitable.
Some jurisdictions bar civil actions resulting from a justified shooting entirely.
Ohio bars monetary recovery.
Most stickup men and jihadis can't afford to pay out of pocket for frivolous lawsuits. Few lawyers will work on a contingent basis for 1/3 of BUPKIS.
Stevie-Ray
Member
Accused.If it's 45 ACP I'm good with ball. What exactly are you looking for, a 60 cal. projectile?
Prosecution.
I see you are using ammo developed for law enforcement. Do you consider yourself engaged in some type of law enforcement?
Winchester T Series. "Law enforcement ammunition" right on the box.
No, I don't. But, law enforcement puts their lives on the line, every day. And if this is the round that they believe helps them get home every night, that's good enough for my safety as well.
CoalTrain49
Member
Well, good luck convincing a jury. Only about 5% of that jury is going to understand why people carry because that's about how many people carry concealed. I don't think the jury would question why LE would use that ammo dealing with the criminal element everyday, but they might have some question why you would use it.
Call me old school but I think way too much emphasis is put on high cap mags and SD ammo and not enough emphasis put on training. Gear isn't the answer, training is. Ball has worked pretty well for a very long time and you need to train with the ammo you carry. There are some good reasons for that. I shoot about 100-200 rounds of 45 APC a month. Burning 100 rounds of SD ammo every month could get really expensive. Good SD ammo runs about 0.50/rd so that means I would be spending at least $600 on SD ammo every year.
You might be able to afford that but I can't.
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People keep bring this up without fully understanding how this sort of civil immunity works. These laws don't necessarily get one off the hook or keep one from getting sued. The threshold question will be whether one's act of violence in claimed self defense actually was justified.
If there is any dispute on the point, you can find yourself in court defending a civil suit (and paying your lawyer a lot of money) to decide if your act of violence was legally justified. Note that the DA's decision not to pursue criminal charges or even your acquittal by a jury at a trial on a criminal charge doesn't establish justification.
See this thread for a more extensive discussion of civil liability and civil immunity laws.
CoalTrain49
Member
That may be true in a criminal case but leaves some question in a civil case. The fact that you used more lethal force than necessary (killed your assailant instead of incapacitating them) can be used against you in a civil case. Cops get ambushed all the time with that one. Why should that be any different for a civilian in a civil case?
Deanimator
Member
Around here, lethal force appears to mean just that. If people were being sued, never mind successfully sued for justified self-defense, the Cleveland Plain Dealer would be doing everything but knocking on your front door to make sure you knew about it.
Deanimator
Member
That just seems not to be happening here in clear cut cases of self-defense. Even the high visibility cases seem not to be attracting nuisance suits. Suing cities, especially after police shootings is viewed as a slot machine that pays off on low odds. Individuals, not so much.
Deanimator
Member
Reconnaissance by fire has worked pretty well for a very long time as well. Do you recommend that to somebody in Cleveland?
I live in Rocky River, not Fallujah.
If you're in Raqqa, get a through and through and hit a second jihadi, he doesn't get to sue you. He just gets his spot in a mass grave.
I live in Ohio, not ISIS territory in Syria,
And unlike the cops, I don't have a union lawyer and the presumption of justification. If I shoot the right person AND the wrong person, I don't have a bottomless pit of OTHER people's money to pay judgments and settlements.
At least here, getting a through and through and hitting an innocent is FAR more of a danger than a justified shooting using JHP or LSWC-HP.
JTQ
Member
Have there been a lot of instances of "shoot though's" hitting innocent bystanders? I'm asking about actual shoot through's not misses that end up hitting a bystander.
If I told you...
"You're going to be in a shootout at 9th and Euclid at 12:00 Noon tomorrow. There is no getting around it. You have to be there, and you're going to be in a shootout. However, you don't have to conceal your gun, and you can bring any firearm you want."
Are you bringing a .380 with 80gr hollow points to make sure you don't have a shoot through in such a busy part of town, or are you bringing a powerful rifle that is easier to aim, carry's more rounds, has much more power, and of course could possibly shoot through your adversary? Your call.
Over-penetration of pistol rounds - especially when the actual hit rate is so small - is probably the most overblown concern of the concealed carrier.
JTQ
Member
The other consideration is what is the typical situation where the typical citizen will employ a firearm for defense? Is it in the crowed mall, the busy downtown at noon, or is it more likely in the empty parking lot late at night, or alone in your home? I suspect the typical citizen employment of a firearm will be in a nearly deserted area, and even if full penetration of the assailant was an issue, there likely wouldn't be a bystander near enough to get hit.
Deanimator
Member
JTQ
Member
I don't know if any have been.
Do you have a list of Ohio citizens that have been sued for shoot throughs with handgun ammunition?
Edit to add: I'm not arguing the hollow point stuff will get you sued or convicted. I listed the Fish case above because a member was asking for an example.
My argument is the "shoot through" concern, with handgun ammo, is way overblown.
Do you have a list of Ohio citizens that have been sued for shoot throughs with handgun ammunition?
Edit to add: I'm not arguing the hollow point stuff will get you sued or convicted. I listed the Fish case above because a member was asking for an example.
My argument is the "shoot through" concern, with handgun ammo, is way overblown.
- How do you know and on what data do you base your conclusion?
- Clear cut cases aren't an issue. But what is a "clear cut" case? Who decides? And if there's a disagreement as to whether the case is clear cut self defense?
- And there's no guarantee that when the smoke clears everyone is going to agree that your act of violence was cleat cut self defense.[/quote]
Deanimator
Member
- The Cleveland Plain Dealer has an INCANDESCENT hatred of lawful gun owners. If people were getting sued, they'd have sound trucks blaring the news 24/7.
- I'm on the OFCC web site constantly. If this were happening, OFCC would be talking about it.
- Personally speaking, I avoid situations where self-defense WOULDN'T be clear cut. I don't have the slightest interest in most "normal" people and don't engage with them, never mind drunks and hoodlums. I certainly don't hang out where freaks and thugs congregate. If you want to attack the guy sitting by himself eating dinner and reading a $125 book on machine guns, well good luck with that.
Deanimator
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Deanimator
Member
JTQ
Member
You keep bringing up these LE examples. That's not my concern as I"m not LE. LE operates under a whole bunch of different circumstances than concealed carriers.
https://dailycaller.com/2014/08/22/when-citizens-fight-back/
JTQ
Member
Because he was using ball ammo, shooting a snake, in a tree, and the round passed through the snake and hit the kid? You're saying the issue was the use of ball ammo?
As former Buckeye Cris Carter would say, "Come on, Man."
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rpenmanparker
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I don't get it. When you are shooting a perp, there is no such thing as too effective. There is no overkill. So if you could use the most effective ammo, and it is also the safest for innocent bystanders due to limited penetration, i.e. JHP, why would you use anything else? I mean really, why would you use anything else? I know I am repeating myself, but it just seems so obvious.
Zerodefect
member
My pistol is Jhp, my reloads are fmj. It's just to reduce cost, as it all gets shot at the range before it's too old.
The reload will never get used anyways.
The reload will never get used anyways.
CoalTrain49
Member
If you're going to use NYPD shooting innocent bystanders you probably should read this incident.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-shooting-hit-by-police-idUSBRE87Q04X20120827
So much for those hollow point SD loads . Those cops would have looked pretty stupid had Johnson been wearing armor. You can buy those plate carriers pretty cheap you know. https://www.opticsplanet.com/bulletproof-vests.html
Anyway, I don't live in Iraq or Ohio and you can carry and train with whatever you want. I'll stick with ball and pay attention to who's in the line of fire. I'll also avoid shooting snakes out of trees.
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