9 vs .38Spec?

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Many ballistic charts showing 38spl velocity are created with test barrels without a cylinder gap. In actual revolvers the results are less.

The 9mm operates at a much higher pressure and the pistol platform is more efficient.
 
It's great to rehash the 9 mm vs .38 spl article from Guns and Ammo June 1966. The only thing to remember is that .38 spl operates at 17000 psi, while 9 mm being a military round operates at 35000 psi. With advances in bullet technology the 9mm bests the .38 spl in every SD application. The real comparison is between 9mm and .357.
 
Explain the “woods” thing to me please. And tell me why a Federal HST 147 gr +P JHP expanding to around 0.6 inches and penetrating around 15 inches wouldn’t be better than your load whether shot from a SA pistol or a revolver. More energy and more damage with the 9mm. And Just about the same recoil due to stud similar power factors.

I do not carry a Federal HST 147 gr +P JHP expanding to around 0.6 inches and penetrating around 15 inches.

Therefore what I do carry is superior to what I do not carry.

It really is that simple.
 
It's great to rehash the 9 mm vs .38 spl article from Guns and Ammo June 1966. The only thing to remember is that .38 spl operates at 17000 psi, while 9 mm being a military round operates at 35000 psi. With advances in bullet technology the 9mm bests the .38 spl in every SD application. The real comparison is between 9mm and .357.
100% correct and I will pick the .357 Magnum every time over the 9mm if I'm not carrying a .38 Special..
 
Right, wrong or indifferent its an individual's choice between the 38Spl and 9X19mm. Some individuals' like to argue for the sake arguing. This subject is like beating a dead horse to death!
 
Right, wrong or indifferent its an individual's choice between the 38Spl and 9X19mm. Some individuals' like to argue for the sake arguing. This subject is like beating a dead horse to death!
That is also true but like I say, they make so many different guns because there are so many different opinions and likes. I don't think anyone is wrong, it's a personal choice.
 
It's one thing to say, "I like what I like", but quite another to say, "What I like is best...because I like it". Despite the times we live in, there are truths and facts. You are entitled to you own opinion, but not to your own facts.
 
100% correct and I will pick the .357 Magnum every time over the 9mm if I'm not carrying a .38 Special..
Why don't you pick the .357 Mag over the .38 Special? If A > B and B > C, then A > C. I haven't forgotten all the math that I learned. (Hint: A = .357 Mag, B = 9mm, C = .38 Special)
 
It's one thing to say, "I like what I like", but quite another to say, "What I like is best...because I like it". Despite the times we live in, there are truths and facts. You are entitled to you own opinion, but not to your own facts.
I'm not sure that fits here. Are you saying the 9mm, .38 Special or .357 Magnum are bad choices?

Are you saying it's wrong to compare the 9mm and .357 Magnum since both operate at the same pressure? Which "facts" are you referring to?
 
I'm not sure that fits here. Are you saying the 9mm, .38 Special or .357 Magnum are bad choices?

Are you saying it's wrong to compare the 9mm and .357 Magnum since both operate at the same pressure? Which "facts" are you referring to?
No, I am saying folks contend that .38 Special is the equal of 9mm for personal defense when the numbers clearly show otherwise. Actually I am a little confused. I thought .357 operated at higher pressure than 9mm, but the SAAMI specs are the same. 9mm+P is even a little higher. How does .357 generate so much more energy if the allowed pressures are the same?
 
No, I am saying folks contend that .38 Special is the equal of 9mm for personal defense when the numbers clearly show otherwise. Actually I am a little confused. I thought .357 operated at higher pressure than 9mm, but the SAAMI specs are the same. 9mm+P is even a little higher. How does .357 generate so much more energy if the allowed pressures are the same?
I'm no engineer so I can't speak to that question, sorry. Someone here could probably tell us.

Also, just because the 9mm will produce more velocity doesn't mean it's "better" for SD. Stopped is stopped and the .38 Special is a proven platform. Better? Who knows, how much dead is better? Shot placement counts too.

Oh and this:
.357 Magnum 35,000 PSI
9mm 35,000 PSI
9mm +P 38,500 PSI
 
I'm no engineer so I can't speak to that question, sorry. Someone here could probably tell us.

Also, just because the 9mm will produce more velocity doesn't mean it's "better" for SD. Stopped is stopped and the .38 Special is a proven platform. Better? Who knows, how much dead is better? Shot placement counts too.

Oh and this:
.357 Magnum 35,000 PSI
9mm 35,000 PSI
9mm +P 38,500 PSI
Right. Those numbers are the numbers that surprise me. Those are the limits. What are the actual loading numbers that produce so much more energy for the .357. Is the 9mm case just not big enough to contain sufficient powder to actually produce the pressure for which the guns are rated ? That would be odd.
 
Right. Those numbers are the numbers that surprise me. Those are the limits. What are the actual loading numbers that produce so much more energy for the .357. Is the 9mm case just not big enough to contain sufficient powder to actually produce the pressure for which the guns are rated ? That would be odd.
That's exactly it right there. The 357 magnum has a tremendously higher case capacity over the 9mm. True, in short barrels (say 3" and less) the 357 is not really that munch faster than a warm 9mm out of say a 4" barrel.

When you are spreading out the pressure in a longer cartridge, in a longer chamber, you can include a lot more propellant while still keeping pressure the same. This is why bullet setback can be so dangerous with repeated clambering of the same round. Pressure increases as the case capacity is reduced.

You also tend to see slower burning powders used in 357 magnum with high velocity, which allows for a greater pressure curve and buildup, without necessarily spiking the pressure over the max. So you get greater velocity if you load it right. The additional use of a cannelured bullet with a roll crimp, and often a longer bullet with more bearing surface and greater weight allows for the bullet to remain stationary a bit longer as pressure builds. This is why you often get less velocity loss from short barrels using heavier bullets, at least in revolver cartridges. Bullet inertia plays a roll also.

9mm lacks a cannelured bullet, is often but not always using a lighter bullet, uses a taper crimp because it head spaces on the case mouth rather than a cartridge rim, and just plain can't hold the bullet as long to build pressure high enough to send a bullet downrange at the same velocities as a 357. These things can be overcome by increasing case length and powder charge, which is all that was done with 38 Super by my understanding.

I see you mentioning energy. If you are talking foot pounds of energy, I find these conversations easier if energy is left out of it. Energy is just a way of blending bullet mass and velocity into one number. It doesn't really mean anything though. You can generate tremendous energy by propelling a very light bullet extremely fast. But that doesn't tell you anything about how the bullet will behave and it ignores sectional density and construction. If you propell a heavier bullet if a different cartridge, at lower velocity, the two may have the same energy. But assuming adequate velocity, the heavier bullet will likely penetrate deeper. This is a far more important aspect of terminal ballistics to consider in my opinion as hydrostatic and cavitation injuries just don't happen with handgun cartridges. The bullets are just to slow.
 
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That's exactly it right there. The 357 magnum has a tremendously higher case capacity over the 9mm. True, in short barrels (say 3" and less) the 357 is not really that munch faster than a warm 9mm out of say a 4" barrel.

When you are spreading out the pressure in a longer cartridge, in a longer chamber, you can include a lot more propellant while still keeping pressure the same. This is why bullet setback can be so dangerous with repeated clambering of the same round. Pressure increases as the case capacity is reduced.

You also tend to see slower burning powders used in 357 magnum with high velocity, which allows for a greater pressure curve and buildup, without necessarily spiking the pressure over the max. So you get greater velocity if you load it right. The additional use of a channeled bullet with a roll crimp, and often a longer bullet with more bearing surface and greater weight allows for the bullet to remain stationary a bit longer as pressure builds. This is why you often get less velocity loss from short barrels using heavier bullets, at least in revolver cartridges. Bullet inertia plays a roll also.

9mm lacks a cannelured bullet, is often but not always using a lighter bullet, uses a taper crimp because it head spaces on the case mouth rather than a cartridge rim, and just plain can't hold the bullet as long to build pressure high enough to send a bullet downrange at the same velocities as a 357. These things can be overcome by increasing case length and powder charge, which is all that was done with 38 Super by my understanding.

I see you mentioning energy. If you are talking foot pounds of energy, I find these conversations easier if energy is left out of it. Energy is just a way of blending bullet mass and velocity into one number. It doesn't really mean anything though. You can generate tremendous energy by propelling a very light bullet extremely fast. But that doesn't tell you anything about how the bullet will behave and it ignores sectional density and construction. If you propell a heavier bullet if a different cartridge, at lower velocity, the two may have the same energy. But assuming adequate velocity, the heavier bullet will likely penetrate deeper. This is a far more important aspect of terminal ballistics to consider in my opinion as hydrostatic and cavitation injuries just don't happen with handgun cartridges. The bullets are just to slow.
I should have waited for your explanation before posting a new thread on this question in Handloading and Reloading. But it can't hurt. So why was the high SAAMI maximum established for 9mm if the design just doesn't allow such pressures to be reached? Or are you saying that the pressures are reached without it translating to similar muzzle energies as in .357 Mag.?

I understand what you are saying about slower/heavier and faster/lighter but muzzle energy just seems like a convenient way of indexing cartridges. I get that it isn't a perfect measurement.
 
Or are you saying that the pressures are reached without it translating to similar muzzle energies as in .357 Mag.?
Yes that's my understanding of it. Chamber pressure doesn't mean much without considering case capacity and bullet weight. Nor does energy really.

I agree though, energy is a convenient description, and gives you ideas on mass and velocity relationship, but when talking cartridge capabilities, it's only part of the equation and not inclusive.

It's good you started a thread in the reloading area on the topic. There are some amazingly knowledgeable folks in there who can undoubtedly shed more light than I can.
 
You are right about just one thing. There is no real controversy. It is clear-cut.

You cannot will that which is false into being true on the basis of your “preferred platform”. You have totally misrepresented the relative attributes of .38 Special, .38 Special +P, .357 Magnum, and 9 mm. If you cannot use the ballistic results to impartially and correctly judge lethal-ness, what is the point of contributing to the conversation? It just keeps going back to nostalgia. I get that you like .38 Special. That doesn’t make it equivalent to .44 Magnum. Extreme example, but just as the numbers show that, they also show that it doesn’t make it equivalent to 9 mm. Impartial is the key concept.

Keep in mind that I am not criticizing .38 Special or +P as a fun cartridge to load and shoot. I am only saying it is not equal to 9mm as a self-denfense round. That is the topic of the thread.

Can you correctly judge lethal-ness via ballisitc results? Is a .30-06 more lethal than a .308 and a .300 Win Mag more lethal than a .30-06? Or, if you're hunting whitetail in the woods, is it possible the added velocity is more an advantage in discussions like this than it is in killing a deer?

Are the wound cavities so different that poor shot placement with a 9mm become lethal where a .38 wouldn't?

Should the 9mm be the baseline? Are the .40 S&W, .357 Sig, 10mm and so forth more lethal and does that make the 9mm a vestige of nostalgia? Or, even in the face of superior ballistics, could the 9mm be the equal of ballisitcally superior rounds in real world lethal-ness?
 
Can you correctly judge lethal-ness via ballisitc results? Is a .30-06 more lethal than a .308 and a .300 Win Mag more lethal than a .30-06? Or, if you're hunting whitetail in the woods, is it possible the added velocity is more an advantage in discussions like this than it is in killing a deer?

Are the wound cavities so different that poor shot placement with a 9mm become lethal where a .38 wouldn't?

Should the 9mm be the baseline? Are the .40 S&W, .357 Sig, 10mm and so forth more lethal and does that make the 9mm a vestige of nostalgia? Or, even in the face of superior ballistics, could the 9mm be the equal of ballisitcally superior rounds in real world lethal-ness?
All good questions, but I have no definitive answers. I will say that within classes like handgun cartridges, bullet mass, bullet expansion, and energy upon impact seem to correlate reasonably well with perceived lethality, or put another way, with our general beliefs and published information. And crossing over to other classes like assault rifles, don't we generally agree that the high energy due to the extreme velocity of .223 rounds makes them extremely lethal compared to handguns. So I would say to a great extent, yes, mass, expansion, velocity and the resultant energy do matter.

Now about 9 mm. Clearly according to our general beliefs it has shortcomings in lethality compared to 10 mm, .45 ACP, .357 Mag and the like. But it is thought to be more deadly than .32 ACP, .380 and such. And it has other factors going for it like high capacity, low recoil, relative ease of carry compared to the big boys, low cost for practice, and ready availability. You can see how it sits in the middle of the pack more or less. I would never say 9 mm is most lethal. I would maintain, however, that it occupies a sweet spot defined as best at nothing but very, very good at everything. In so many areas, products like that are the most desirable. I certainly think that SD ammo is that kind of thing.
 
I will say that within classes like handgun cartridges, bullet mass, bullet expansion, and energy upon impact seem to correlate reasonably well with perceived lethality...
I think if it was that simple, there would be no caliber wars. As far as I can tell, no one has been able to correlate real world data solidly with simple metrics like mass, diameter, amount of expansion, and energy unless the differences are extreme.

Put another way, there's probably good data to show that .25ACP isn't as lethal/effective as .357Mag, but there doesn't seem any good data showing that 9mm is better than .38Spl when it comes to stopping threats.

IMO, the decision between 9mm and .38Spl should be made based on aspects other than terminal ballistics. Things like: revolver or semi-auto, moon clips or speedloader, practice costs, etc.
 
I think if it was that simple, there would be no caliber wars. As far as I can tell, no one has been able to correlate real world data solidly with simple metrics like mass, diameter, amount of expansion, and energy unless the differences are extreme.

Put another way, there's probably good data to show that .25ACP isn't as lethal/effective as .357Mag, but there doesn't seem any good data showing that 9mm is better than .38Spl when it comes to stopping threats.

IMO, the decision between 9mm and .38Spl should be made based on aspects other than terminal ballistics. Things like: revolver or semi-auto, moon clips or speedloader, practice costs, etc.

Post number four in the "can you tell if a bullet forensically was 38 special vs 357 mag" thread is worth considering.
 
I think you guys both missed where I said “perceived lethality”. I would never suggest it is a done deal based on reams of applicable data. I just think most shooters credit 10 mm, .357 mag and .45 ACP as being more lethal than 9 mm, and 9 mm as being more lethal than .380. .38 Special isn’t as clear cut in folks heads.
 
I think you guys both missed where I said “perceived lethality”. I would never suggest it is a done deal based on reams of applicable data. I just think most shooters credit 10 mm, .357 mag and .45 ACP as being more lethal than 9 mm, and 9 mm as being more lethal than .380. .38 Special isn’t as clear cut in folks heads.
That's probably an accurate statement. People tend to assume that measureable differences equate to practical differences.
 
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