LAPD with .38's?

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larryf1952

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A day or 2 ago, I was watching a program about bullets on the History Channel. It was pretty interesting, although I think I'd seen it before. At one point, they were discussing the infamous LA bank robbery and ensuing shootout of a few years ago, in which the LEO's were allegedly so far outgunned that they didn't stand a chance.

I know that these guys had full autos, but they were only AK's, right? Discounting the caliber and bullet weights, wouldn't an M16 have been it's equivalent in the hands of the cops? I know that the ordinary street cop doesn't likely carry an M16 in his patrol car, but I also know that most departments have M16's aplenty, plus a lot of other stuff.

It always disturbs me a bit to hear how badly outgunned the LEO's always are. You mean to tell me, that Joe Schmuck criminal has the resources and the knowledge to get more powerful and lethal firepower than a city PD, supported by taxpayer dollars, with access to vast amounts of training and other equipment? Maybe so, but I don't know where they find it...Criminals 'R Us?

But, the thing that really raised my eyebrows was when the commentator mentioned that all the street cops had to fight back with were their "9mm's and .38's". With the inference towards weak calibers, I took this to mean .38 Spl. If, in fact, he meant .38 caliber, that would be a .357 Magnum, which is certainly NOT a weak handgun. So, was the LAPD actually using .38 Special revolvers then? I find that hard to believe.
 
The LAPD issued .38 Special revolvers before they switched to the 9mm Beretta. I believe older officers could stick with the .38 revolvers. Possibly plainsclothes officers would carry .38's as well.
 
I saw a actual model 14 S&W in a picture from that incident deployed by an officer. Older hands can still have them I believe. Bank robbers had a wide array of full auto weapons including AR and AK's with 100rd drums. Responding non SWAT officers only had sidearms and shotguns w/o any slugs. Upwards of 300 officers at one time could not initially neautralize the threat.
 
I suspect the "North Hollywood Shootout" was a problem because all the officers involved were trying to call their lawyers for permisison to shoot, at the same time! 300 cellphone calls simultaneously may have over loaded the local cell. I suspect the LAPD won't take any action unless the situation is covered by SOP. After all, Police officers went to jail, for not killing Rodney King.

Geoff
Who is only semi-serious.
 
Correct on the 38's. They were grandfathered when the switch was made to autos. Anyone who wished to retain them could. All new recruit class's from that date on were issued the new semi's. Any current officer could switch if they wanted.
 
I don't think the problem was that their handguns weren't powerfull enough to stop your average threat. The guys they were fighting had full body armor on, making your average pistol round inadequte. Granted the officers were also fighting in a rifle war, with only pistols, so they were on the losing side to begin with.
 
That was a great wake up call for law enforcement, and, fortunatly, no good guys got killed, the price could have been much higher. Remember, from an administrative/fiscal standpoint, an Officer getting killed is alot cheaper than an Officer killing a bad guy, or worse, a bad shooting. If an Officer is killed, you pay off his retirement, that he was getting anyway, have a nice funeral and hire a recruit at half the pay the senior Officer was getting. ANY Police shooting is horredly expensive, no matter how justified, lots of lawsuits and investigations and bizarre juries that award several million dollars to the suspect or suspects family anyway even if the bad guy needed killing in the worst way. Remember, the family of one of the N Hollywood suspects sued the city of LA for wrongful death. (I honestly don't know if that went anywhere though)

Fortunatly, our department allowed us to carry pistol caliber lever actions or pumps and 30 M1 Carbines prior to the N Hollywood shootout and shortly thereafter, we were authorized .223's. We have a Chief that is a Police Officer at heart. Get into some of the major cities, the Chief is a pure politician and the cities money is the bottom line, he may get bonuses every year based on how little money he spends, not a good situation for cops that want new guns, bigger guns and the ammo and training associated with all that nonsense. Add a bunch of "Community activists" screaming that the police are killing the minority De Jour and they only want bigger guns to kill more of the "Opressed" and the chances are, the cops are undergunned.
 
The robbers were armed with 3 fully auto AKs, a full auto Bushmaster with 100rd. C-Mag, and a semi-auto HK91 (G3) battle rifle. They fired over 1100 rounds and over 2000 rounds were found in their car.

Standard issue for LAPD at the time were Beretta 92's and 12 ga. pumps loaded only with buckshots. 12 ga. slugs were taken out of service a few weeks prior to the shootout due to some administrative concerns. But, the exact details I can't recall.

Some of the officers responding to the seen went to a local gun shop (B&B Sales in No. Hollywood) where the employees helped load large capacity magazines and loaned Bushmaster XM15's to the officers. None where used in the actual shootout. At least one was auctioned or raffled off at a later date.

One of the robbers were taken down by a responding SWAT team armed with AR15's. The other robber was either killed by a self-inflicted pistol shot to the head.

After the shootout, LAPD accepted surplus M16A1's that were converted to semi-auto. Patrol seargents were trained and one rifle was issued for each of their cars. Regular beat cops did not get rifles.

One of the officers injured in the shootout SUED Bushmaster.
 
I was at a LEO conference in LA last month. The "older" LAPD people are permitted to carry revolvers if they want.
 
You mean to tell me, that Joe Schmuck criminal has the resources and the knowledge to get more powerful and lethal firepower than a city PD, supported by taxpayer dollars, with access to vast amounts of training and other equipment?
Click to expand...

Afraid so, friend. The LAPD Chief is a Politician first--cop second. Public opinion and the wishes of the Liberal mayor and city council often (ah, jeez, always) take precidence over officer safety.

It's my understanding that now, some Commanders carry a rifle that they can speed right to the scene of the next major incident so they don't have to raid the gunstore down the block like last time. After the shootout, a Police spokesman said the department might be going to the .45 auto. LOL. Right, the ACP will go right through those level 3 armored coats. :rolleyes:
 
For the information of Dodging, and others: A 45 ACP will not only NOT penetrate the type of body armor the North Hollywood robbers were wearing (hard armor), the ACP round will not NECESSARILY break bones or otherwise incapacite a person wearing level III armor. In fact the ACP round will probably inflict less blunt trauma then a smaller high speed round because it is slower and the larger sectional density of the 45 will spread the impact on the vest and do less damage that the smaller faster bullet. I did some research because I have taken hits on soft body armor, its not fun but is not necessarily disabling. You can be seriously injured while wearing armor from blunt trauma, but there are a lot of factors in play at the time of the impact. I am not going to try to get into all of them, but one thing is certain, and that is NOTHING is certain when you take a hit in soft armor.
 
Interesting note on the .38's used in the shootout

I have heard that the percentage of 125 gr. .38 JHPs dug out of the robbers' vests was way HIGHER than ratio of .38 Special to 9mm rounds expended during the event. Seems to me that the old sages with their K-frame .38's were significantly more accurate under fire than their younger buddies with the spray-and-pray hi-cap 9mm's. Though neither round was effective in this case, it sure is food for thought.
 
DAO or Double Action Only, Magazine disconects, triple retention holsters, smart gun research, etc.

All of this stuff is due to police "need" as defined by pencil pushing has beens or never was to "protect" the officer from the gun falling into the wrong hands or to "protect" the public from accidental discharges by making it increasingly hard to fire a weapon and do so quickly and accurately.

Thus an AR which is essentially single action with a high cap mag that looks like a spray and pray weapon vintage vietnam scares the crap out of the has beens and never was.

Also the "this is the way we've always done it" which permiates law enforcement has sent more than one officer to his grave. The fact is criminals have almost always outgunned cops. Look at Bonnie and Clyde.
 
This is the Crap that pretty much put an end to Assault Rifles in California.

It's very sad to hear that they did not have 12g with SLUGS.
I believe a 12g slug round would have done the trick.. What do you think? :confused:
 
No, it would have bounced off the body armour just like the handgun bullets did. No matter what you see in the movies or believe, hand-held weapons do not have "knock-down power."
 
A 12 guage slug can take a whitetail deer off his feet if hit right. I have done it several times and seen it many more. Now if it can do this to a 150 pound 4 legged animal it can certainly do it to a human.
 
the north hollywood shoot out was a horrible thing. i always find it ironic that cops had to go to civilian weponary that they wanted banned to help end the fight.

I find it ironic that I am grouped in with the "they's" and I didn't want those kinds of weapons banned.
 
Thanks everyone for the very informative replies to this thread, I've learned a lot. My intention when I stated that the robbers were only armed with AK's was not to infer that they were not serious weapons, but to point out that AK's are considered "light" weapons, and that the police should not have been outgunned by them if they'd had access to their own weapons of similar nature. Still, I can understand how someone shooting full auto from an AK with a 100 round drum can definitely keep a large number of heads down at close range. I sure wouldn't be one to poke my neck out indiscriminately.

I almost think that these guys had something to prove, and that the fight and shootout was what they wanted all along...the bank robbery was only the vehicle that got them there. They certainly had planned for and expected that it would happen by their armament and the quantity of ammo that they had with them. In a way, I'd like to know what was going through their twisted minds before the whole thing happened.
 
A 12 guage slug can take a whitetail deer off his feet if hit right. I have done it several times and seen it many more. Now if it can do this to a 150 pound 4 legged animal it can certainly do it to a human.
Click to expand...
Of course, the deer weren't wearing body armour, were they? You're confusing "can" with "will" (and forgetting the armour). A .357 Magnum can take a whitetail off its feet--been there, done that. A .30-06 (or .222 or .243) can take a deer off its feet--been there, done that, but, even with a good hit with a .30-06 (or .222 or .243) will not always take a deer off its feet--been there, done that, too. What I have not done (and I'm pretty sure you haven't) is take a whitetail wearning body armour off its feet. :rolleyes:
 
As I understand it if you really want a weapon that will penetrate soft body armor effectively then you better get a sword for the close in work and a nice bow with several dozen arrows for distance work. Short of that you work with what you've got.
A Remington 870 (or whatever make you prefer) with 12 gauge slugs beats a handgun at close range. But is it perfect? Nope. I've read accounts of men having legs and arms blown off in combat and they still keep going - at least for awhile. Other accounts of men having their abdomens sliced completely open,intestines going everywhere, and they still keep working for awhile. Humans can be very resilent.
 
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