Kleiner riese
Member
Aside from the higher capacity ammo of semi-automatic pistols,was there any flaws in the use of the 38 special? How effective was it for law enforcement?
I suspected it was effective but was curious as to LEO opinion.Well, uh... it worked(s)... ?
I guess you would need to qualify your question a little bit.
Is the cartridge effective? For most things personal protection related, yeah probably.
Are revolvers good choices for CCW and personal protection? yeah... has a lot to do with the user, though.
Will people recommend other things? oh you know it. LOL
Welcome to forum!
Thanks. Again I was curious about LEO opinions as the 38 special was used for quite a while.Capacity was not the reason for the overwhelming switch over to Semis though it was a factor in the decision making. The main thing was reload speed. The yeoman police officer with no other training besides academy or state college shooting education can more effectively reload a semi auto vs. Revolver. Ironically history has shown that the high brass in various places wanted the revolvers merits without it's detractions we see this in things like the Glock and other striker fired pistols with no manual safeties it is closer to the revolver in function of just "pull the trigger) than either SA or DA/SA autos, we see it in ammo choices such as the Creation of the .45 ACP cartridge which duplicates black powder .45 Colt loads, 10mm/.40 cal debate when we already had the .41 mag and some can even argue even earlier for the .38-40 WCF, remember the biggest switch came over in the 80s due to a variety of factors that I care not to get into at the moment, the 1911 was invented well in 1911, the 92 series by Beretta in 1972, there were other autos like the HI Power as well in the 1930s and Smith and Wessons 39 and while several depts transitioned to those firearms either early on or later the true transition did not take place until the prolific Glock pistol came about. Even more currently the trend to copying revolvers continuing most notably with the .357 SIG cartridge intending to copy the .357 in lighter weight loadings and the 9mm by increasing velocity to try and once again duplicate the effectiveness of the ole 125 grain load. Revolvers are fine for SD,HD, Carry, Hunting, and even police and war fare for the EXPERIENCED shooter but the striker fired weapons are probably better suited to those who will wear a uniform not out of lovr of country and community or a sense of duty but the guy who likes to eat doughnuts in the morning and views it as a job and nothing more. The .38 worked fine and it still does with the right loads. Otherwise it wouldn't still be around.
What is special about LEO?I suspected it was effective but was curious as to LEO opinion.
I suspected it was effective but was curious as to LEO opinion.
How effective was it for law enforcement?
The .38 was used for awhile by both citizens and law enforcement alike up to and including today. You didn't specify LEO only.Thanks. Again I was curious about LEO opinions as the 38 special was used for quite a while.
Capacity was not the reason for the overwhelming switch over to Semis though it was a factor in the decision making. The main thing was reload speed. The yeoman police officer with no other training besides academy or state college shooting education can more effectively reload a semi auto vs. Revolver.
I understand where your coming from. I do not wish however to turn the thread away from .38 to revolver vs auto we can that elsewhere just wanted to give out a bit of a comparison about similarities.I appreciate your post, but want to argue for the sake of discussion. My proposition is that it was not capacity or reload speed, though both those things became a (false) excuse. There were two more decisive factors that have taken a little longer time to come to light: the heavy double-action trigger, and the recoil of the .357 magnum, combined with the necessary weight to control recoil.
Once speedloaders were accepted as duty equipment, the revolver reload was not anymore a problem than a magazine reload. Inadequately trained people under stress can still fumble either, but a well-trained person can be just as fast with whatever they commit to training with.
The first problem with the revolver was the long, heavy double-action trigger. Even in the 1920's, new recruits that trained with a 1911 immediately had better results shooting the single-action trigger. But the long, heavy, double-action of the revolver kept it in favor of the authorities who were mindful of liabilities and embarrassment for unintentional discharges. During most of the century the revolver was popular in law enforcement, rules like keeping the finger off the trigger were not widely espoused, and most officers and their trainers were not aware of things like startle reflex and sympathetic squeeze. In fact, they were very strictly "point shooting" in the academies up until the 1980's when Cooper, his "Modern Method" and Rule #3 began to have attention paid to them.
While the .357 was introduced in the Registered Magnum (what later became the N frame Model 27) as early as 1935, most officers considered the gun too heavy (and too expensive) for regular duty use. To put it in perspective, it was just as large and even heavier than Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum Model 29, being the same frame but with less metal bored out for the smaller caliber. The Model 19 was super popular because it did not weigh significantly more than a K-frame .38. However, because of that, most officers used .38 Special in it, that is until the .38 Special with the issued round-nosed lead bullets proved time and time again that it had very poor effect. In effect, .38 Special was replaced by the .357 Magnum, at least for duty ammo. But officers scored better on qualifications with .38 Special. So they practiced and qualified with .38 and carried .357.
After the Newhall Incident in 1970, officers were compelled to train and qualify with the same ammo they carried. This is really what ended the popularity of the .38 Special with law enforcement -- not the semi-automatic pistol. The L frame S&W and the Ruger GP-100 were introduced to handle the higher volume of .357 Magnum that resulted from policy requiring officers to train, practice and qualify with .357 Magnum. Those guns' weight with their full underlugs, approached that of the N frame. Put simply, this weight was necessary to tame the .357 Magnum's recoil, and many people still had trouble with it.
There is no question one of the most compelling things about the Glock was that it was half the weight. But it sure didn't fire .357 Magnum at that featherweight. Because of Miami, the FBI and police agencies flirted with the .40 S&W for a couple of decades but ultimately it lost out because it didn't pair well with a 22 ounce polymer gun. When it was conceived, it was expected to be shot in guns similar to the Model 4506 -- at over 40 ounces. Indeed it debuted in the 4006, which was nearly 38 ounces. People came to overwhelmingly prefer the 22 ounce Glock, which is understandably better paired with the 9x19mm chambering. Trigger pulls have also gotten shorter and lighter and are compared today to the lightest single-actions whereas at first they had been marketed as "double-action only."
People want light guns -- above all the other criteria they want it to be easy to carry. Make a person carry a 45 ounce gun every day and they will soon forsake every advantage it has for a 22-ounce gun and say they are very satisfied.
People need light recoiling guns -- and when the gun has to be lightweight also, that means no .357 Magnum.
People hit better with light triggers -- and that means no double-action revolvers.
Guess why the .38 Special +P is still popular, maybe more so than ever, with civilians? You guessed it: lightweight compact revolvers like the J frames, LCR's, K6's etc. Light guns and light recoil.
It's not about capacity or reload speed. It's about lightweight and light recoil. It's why every handgun that is popular for carry or duty use is popular. It made the S&W 19 a smash-hit. It made the Glock 19 a smash-hit. It made the Ruger LCP a #1 best-seller for many years in a row. It made the G43 a hit. It made the Shield a multi-million-seller. It made the P365 a block-buster. And it will make the next big seller too.