Ballistics of .38/.357 & Reconsideration of .45 Colt

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Mr. Mosin

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In looking over Lucky Gunners ballistic reports for .38 Spl and .357 Magnum, I was sorely disappointed in the performance of .38 Spl (and .357 to a lesser extent). This has inspired me to reconsider .45 Colt. Expansion or no, the standard 255 grn slug at ~800 fps, and will punch a .45 caliber hole in your target. If it expands or mushrooms, even better.
 
Which of those do you shoot well with, without thinking about trying to shoot well?

I wouldnt get to caught up in all the numbers and concentrate on what you shoot the best with, and can put rounds where then need to go, and do so quickly and repetitively.

All the major handgun calibers perform to pretty much the same standard. They dont all perform the same in your hands while shooting them.

If you can shoot the 45 best, and put those rounds on target quickly and repetitively, on-demand, then by all means, go for it. Doing the same with the other two, will likely bring about the exact same result, so it comes down to what you can do with the gun.

I have guns in all three of those calibers, and a few more, and I carry a 9mm every day. Not the least bit uncomfortable about the caliber either.
 
consider, also, a 44 magnum chambering. there are a lot more different guns (rifles and handguns) chambered in 44 magnum, you can shoot 44 special in all 44 magnum handguns and you won't have to deal with the over/under sized chamber issues of the 45 colt.

luck,

murf
 
In looking over Lucky Gunners ballistic reports for .38 Spl and .357 Magnum, I was sorely disappointed in the performance of .38 Spl (and .357 to a lesser extent). This has inspired me to reconsider .45 Colt. Expansion or no, the standard 255 grn slug at ~800 fps, and will punch a .45 caliber hole in your target. If it expands or mushrooms, even better.
What is it for which you intend to use the firearm?
 
What did you find disappointing about the Lucky Gunner tests?

A couple of those loads, like the Federal HST, did very well in a short barrel .38 Special, something that you wouldn't have seen a couple of decades ago. This shows that ammunition design has certainly improved.

Don't get me wrong, the .45 Colt is a very good choice, for the reasons you state. But I can carry a short barrel .38 much easier than a .45 Colt.
 
I agree with murf, if I could only own one revolver it would be 44 mag. Very versatile, 44 special, light 44 mag, full throttle, especially if you are going to start reloading for it. The Smith model 69 would be a good choice, small enough to conceal, big enough to shoot mid range loads comfortably, able to take full throttle when needed. Not to mention the Ruger Alaskan, short barrel Smith 29’s, plenty of options to choose from.
 
The .45 colt is a classic round. Certainly capable of doing the job, but unless you reload it's a bit limited either by availability or budget. It's one of the only reasons I haven't added one to my stable. I really want an old school .45 colt, but right now I have a .45 acp Pitbull that gets the job done when I want to carry a compact and reliable 5-shooter...and I can afford to feed it.

For me, I like .357 out of a 5+" barrel if I feel performance is needed. I carry high dollar boutique rounds in my Blackhawk out in areas where I think a hard hitting rip-snort bullet is prudent. I generally carry a .38 special snubnose loaded with ARX ammo for day to day carry. Yes, the .357 will hit harder as will the .45 acp, but I get amazing accuracy and performance of on target hits out a 2" barrel mated to a 16oz gun. For me, the trade off is that I can hit what I am aiming at, with what I feel is good ballistic performance, in a package I will actually carry.

I carried a .45 Shield all day Saturday out and about. Love the pistol and the slimness. Had a full size. 45 1911 stuck in my waistband all day yesterday while bopping to and from the hardware store while decorating the house for Christmas (wife's idea...not mine). However, today I will be driving all over the place and in and out of my truck. I've got a .38 special Charter Arms Undercover in my coat pocket and a NAA Black Widow in my front pants pocket. I feel perfectly protected.

My "preferred" caliber is a .45. I would say the .45 Colt would be up there too. Out in the evenings or traveling or making a trip downtown where things are a bit dicey, a 1911 or the Shield goes with me. Same when I'm hiking and need to save weight. The Shield is a joy to carry and shoot.

However, casual day to day I stake my life on .38 special with special guest star .22 magnum.

.45 doesn't even get bump in the night duty. SIG 320 9mm with 21 round jhp magazine makes me feel way more warm and fuzzy than the 8 rounds in my 1911...until I can get to the 590 propped in the closet.

Long story short, I carry what I shoot well and what I will actually carry. Heavy guns and I don't get along well for long. My fault, not the guns, but it's just me being honest with myself.
 
I believe if you reload and you choose a strong platform such as the NM Blackhawk, the versatility of the .45 Colt is tough to beat. I used to load up to +P levels a lot but now give me a cast 250 grain FP and 5.8 grains Trailboss and I can shoot that all day.
 
If I recall the new Federal 130gn HST Micro 38spl ammunition
is getting 0.73" expansion with 13" penetration out of a 2" test barrel, I'm happy with that as that rivals the high end 9mm 147gn loads I've seen.

The Barnes 125gn TAC-XPD T-Series ammunition gets 0.75" expansion at 14.2" penetration from a 2" test barrel

The Winchester 147gn Ranger T-Series 9mm ammunition got 0.74" expansion and 16.5" of penetration out of a 3.4" test barrel. (1.4" more barrel and no cylinder gap to barely exceed the 357 load!)

All of these figures vastly exceed .46", and are quite easy to shoot accurately from very small packages. Put them in longer barrels of and performance improves I don't know how I'd feel about "pocket" carry for a 45.
 
In looking over Lucky Gunners ballistic reports for .38 Spl and .357 Magnum, I was sorely disappointed in the performance of .38 Spl (and .357 to a lesser extent). This has inspired me to reconsider .45 Colt. Expansion or no, the standard 255 grn slug at ~800 fps, and will punch a .45 caliber hole in your target. If it expands or mushrooms, even better.
If I could open carry, I would probably carry that horse pistol, probably two, with one a cross draw when seated.
 
OP share what you want to use the revolver for and be as specific as you can. There are good arguments for both cartridges depending on the use.

Open carry w/ a belt rig. Perfectly happy with a snub .38 for concealment (it beats any .380). Woods gun, hiking gun, and nightstand gun.
 
I can tell you one thing. If you want to carry a New Model Blackhawk, the .45 Colt blued version is significantly lighter than the .357 version.
The cylinder in the .357 magnum version has very thick cylinder walls, because this cylinder and frame was designed around the .44 magnum and .45 Colt. Even in .45 Colt a NM will cheerfully handle .44 magnum velocity hand loads all day long.
The NM Blackhawk .357 cylinder weighs 333 grams in my 1978 revolver. That's 11.7 ounces or almost 3/4 of a pound. Also consider the extra weight in the barrel due to the smaller bore.
By comparison, the .45 Colt cylinder in my Pietta Colt replica weighs only 194 grams. Yes it's smaller in diameter by .06" and shorter overall, but even adding 10 percent to the weight to compensate, a .45 Colt New Model cylinder must weigh in at around 215 grams, or only 7.5 ounces, or less than 1/2 a pound.
It's mostly air with a web of steel around the chambers. The barrel is obviously correspondingly lighter as well.
Ruger's website is all over the place with the weights of NM Blackhawks, and they don't make much sense.
My 6 1/2" .357 Magnum weighs in at 2.62 pounds or 42 ounces.
Ruger claims that the current 7 1/2" .45 Colt Blackhawk ones weigh 42 ounces.
Accounting for the larger bore, the 1" longer barrel should weigh about the same as the 6 1/2" .357 barrel.
But what happened to the 4.2 ounces of less cylinder weight? It should weigh 37.8 ounces.
Anyway, when you hold my .357 NM revolver at arm's length, it's a brick.
A blued .45 Colt version with a 4 5/8" or 5 1/2" barrel feels much lighter.
 
Mr. Mosin, I am glad you are reconsidering. Don't get me wrong, 357 is no slouch, but 45 Colt is where it's at for what you were asking of it in terms of sheer versatility.

You were thinking about reloading and the cost differences, and I told you a load that would get down to 50 cents difference per hundred give or take a few pennies, not including brass cost.

Others have mentioned the 44 mag or special, and it is ballistically similar to 45 Colt (in the right guns with the right loads) The S&W model 69 is a good choice. You will give up moonclips in 45 acp with it though, for a faster reload, versus the Redhawk. You will gain a smaller gun that's lighter and easier to conceal. It carries one round less.
 
Mr. Mosin, I am glad you are reconsidering. Don't get me wrong, 357 is no slouch, but 45 Colt is where it's at for what you were asking of it in terms of sheer versatility.

You were thinking about reloading and the cost differences, and I told you a load that would get down to 50 cents difference per hundred give or take a few pennies, not including brass cost.

Others have mentioned the 44 mag or special, and it is ballistically similar to 45 Colt (in the right guns with the right loads) The S&W model 69 is a good choice. You will give up moonclips in 45 acp with it though, for a faster reload, versus the Redhawk. You will gain a smaller gun that's lighter and easier to conceal. It carries one round less.

I'm hunting for the ultimate "do-everything" gun, really. My first handgun, and my only for a while
 
Not buying a new production S&W, unless they get rid of the internal locks. Only S&W I would consider now are the no-lock Centennials. That, and Ruger's will tolerate *far*, *far* more than any S&W would ever dream of.
 
As a person who is 5'9, 190, I can and do conceal carry a 5.5 Redhawk, so it's definitely possible, using the right holster (i like Simply Rugged). The 4 inch Redhawk in the 45 acp/colt is very versatile, and if you felt comfortable with it, would be the way I would go.

The other option would be a S&W model 25, but you would have to have it cut for moonclips if you wanted the speedier reload, and it's not as strong as a Redhawk.

The S&W 69 in 44 mag would be my other option, given the choices you have for versatility.
 
If it's your first and only for a while go get a 4 inch barrel S&W 686 or 586 in .357 and you will not be disappointed. Of all my many handguns in the safe my 686 would be the LAST one I'd give up.
 
If it's your first and only for a while go get a 4 inch barrel S&W 686 or 586 in .357 and you will not be disappointed. Of all my many handguns in the safe my 686 would be the LAST one I'd give up.
See above "not buying a new S&W" comment, and every used 686 around here is going for the price of a new one
 
As much as I find little use or love for 357 Magnum in my current collection I have to admit that 357 Mag is probably the better do all cartridge compared to 45 Colt. Select a 6-shot K-frame, 7-shot L-frame or 8-shot N-frame that fits your needs/uses and with an appropriate barrel length for the same and be done with it. Ammo availability is fairly common and can range from very mild 38 Special factory ammo to very high performing boutique loaders and hand loading.

I still think you should give the 10mm Auto GP100 a consideration.

Don't let the S&W internal lock haters get to you. The internal lock is a non-issue and if it bothers you none-the-less it is very easily removed.
 
The Lucky Gunner ballistics tests show a couple of notable things. First, they do show how .38 Special +P is frequently challenged to provide both good expansion and sufficient penetration to meet the standard being tested. This is due to the low pressure limit put on that cartridge. Factory .357 does not have any issues with that protocol. It has the same pressure as 9mm and higher powder and bullet capacity in the case. If anything, it can over-penetrate in protocols where that is even a concern and as long as the bullet construction is good, it will expand reliably. .357 Magnum can both expand and penetrate more than sufficiently to exceed the demands of that protocol, but it often does so with excess recoil. Good wisdom chooses a 357 gun with more than the shortest barrel and starts with adequate 38 Special +P ammo (some people have mentioned specific loads already). If you want to step up to hotter ammo from there, shoot "100%" on qualifications with the .38+P first.

Lucky Gunner did not test .45 Long Colt, but the ballistics of standard pressure ammo is very similar to .45 ACP (that was originally the very intention of .45 ACP, to duplicate the ballistics of black powder 45 LC with a smokeless powder). What we notice about .45 is that when it expands well, it often penetrates sufficiently (per that test's criteria) but not deeply. The bullets that penetrated beyond 18" are mostly the ones that did not expand. There is no question 45 performs outstanding on that test, but its lack of deeper penetration with expanding bullets makes it a poor choice for large game or animal defense. At standard pressures with expanding bullets, .357 Magnum is a better penetrator. It's not because the expanded diameter is smaller, it's often not. It mostly has to do with the higher pressure that 357 allows. Now if we go above the very low standard pressure of .45, and use a "Ruger Only" .45 LC load, it can certainly be made to penetrate better than .357 Magnum. The heavier bullets carry momentum to a longer range and they're just going to go deeper, as would .44 Magnum provided heavy-for-caliber bullets with high sectional density.

I know the big bore guys will decry the performance of 357 for big cattle and bug bears. I won't argue with them. If you really have those kind of problems to solve, knock yourself out. The only inherent disadvantage of .44 or .45 in a revolver is the wider cartridge requires either lower capacity (5-shot Model 69 L frame) or a higher bore axis (6 shot Model 29 or 25/625 N frame). Eight 357's fit into the cylinder of an N frame, 7 in an L frame, and 6 fit into a K frame. The taller frames for the larger cylinders and higher bore axis result in more torque under recoil for a given load. The smaller frames have less of this, but lower capacity. If you really need 44 Magnum, it's the only way to go, but if you're shooting 44 Special or .45 ACP, I'm not sure the tradeoff for the tall frame or lower capacity is worth it.

Your bias against S&W is irrational. The locks don't have to mean that much to you if you simply choose to not let them bother you. There is no evidence that Rugers can handle anything more than a S&W unless you're comparing radically different models like a Model 25 vs a Super Redhawk. Smith has the 460 for that. I have more than one of each (S&W and Ruger) and there is really no cause for prejudice. S&W has long offered DA features that Ruger is only starting to with their Super GP100. Ruger offers single actions that I don't think S&W ever has. If you really need a first and only handgun for a while, it's not wise to choose from irrational bias or to make a choice in extremes from what most people find work well for them. You've admitted to not knowing much about revolvers, but you're trying to out-think everyone who knows a lot about them. If you convince yourself that you've gained enough understanding to go against all their advice, you will probably regret it.
 
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In looking over Lucky Gunners ballistic reports for .38 Spl and .357 Magnum, I was sorely disappointed in the performance of .38 Spl (and .357 to a lesser extent). This has inspired me to reconsider .45 Colt. Expansion or no, the standard 255 grn slug at ~800 fps, and will punch a .45 caliber hole in your target. If it expands or mushrooms, even better.
I tried to make .357mag my all-around go-to.
I was very disappointed in the effectiveness, as much as I hate to admit. The muzzle blast was another negative issue.
Imho, the .45 colt is a much more mature and sovereign cartridge. 20190420_175513.jpg
I will likely never buy another. 357.
 
The Lucky Gunner ballistics tests show a couple of notable things. First, they do show how .38 Special +P is frequently challenged to provide both good expansion and sufficient penetration to meet the standard being tested. This is due to the low pressure limit put on that cartridge. Factory .357 does not have any issues with that protocol. It has the same pressure as 9mm and higher powder and bullet capacity in the case. If anything, it can over-penetrate in protocols where that is even a concern and as long as the bullet construction is good, it will expand reliably. .357 Magnum can both expand and penetrate more than sufficiently to exceed the demands of that protocol, but it often does so with excess recoil. Good wisdom chooses a 357 gun with more than the shortest barrel and starts with adequate 38 Special +P ammo (some people have mentioned specific loads already). If you want to step up to hotter ammo from there, shoot "100%" on qualifications with the .38+P first.

Lucky Gunner did not test .45 Long Colt, but the ballistics of standard pressure ammo is very similar to .45 ACP (that was originally the very intention of .45 ACP, to duplicate the ballistics of black powder 45 LC with a smokeless powder). What we notice about .45 is that when it expands well, it often penetrates sufficiently (per that test's criteria) but not deeply. The bullets that penetrated beyond 18" are mostly the ones that did not expand. There is no question 45 performs outstanding on that test, but its lack of deeper penetration with expanding bullets makes it a poor choice for large game or animal defense. At standard pressures with expanding bullets, .357 Magnum is a better penetrator. It's not because the expanded diameter is smaller, it's often not. It mostly has to do with the higher pressure that 357 allows. Now if we go above the very low standard pressure of .45, and use a "Ruger Only" .45 LC load, it can certainly be made to penetrate better than .357 Magnum. The heavier bullets carry momentum to a longer range and they're just going to go deeper, as would .44 Magnum provided heavy-for-caliber bullets with high sectional density.

I know the big bore guys will decry the performance of 357 for big cattle and bug bears. I won't argue with them. If you really have those kind of problems to solve, knock yourself out. The only inherent disadvantage of .44 or .45 in a revolver is the wider cartridge requires either lower capacity (5-shot Model 69 L frame) or a higher bore axis (6 shot Model 29 or 25/625 N frame). Eight 357's fit into the cylinder of an N frame, 7 in an L frame, and 6 fit into a K frame. The taller frames for the larger cylinders and higher bore axis result in more torque under recoil for a given load. The smaller frames have less of this, but lower capacity. If you really need 44 Magnum, it's the only way to go, but if you're shooting 44 Special or .45 ACP, I'm not sure the tradeoff for the tall frame or lower capacity is worth it.

Your bias against S&W is irrational. The locks don't have to mean that much to you if you simply choose to not let them bother you. There is no evidence that Rugers can handle anything more than a S&W unless you're comparing radically different models like a Model 25 vs a Super Redhawk. Smith has the 460 for that. I have more than one of each (S&W and Ruger) and there is really no cause for prejudice. S&W has long offered DA features that Ruger is only starting to with their Super GP100. Ruger offers single actions that I don't think S&W ever has. If you really need a first and only handgun for a while, it's not wise to choose from irrational bias or to make a choice in extremes from what most people find work well for them. You've admitted to not knowing much about revolvers, but you're trying to out-think everyone who knows a lot about them. If you convince yourself that you've gained enough understanding to go against all their advice, you will probably regret it.
The Lucky Gunner ballistics tests show a couple of notable things. First, they do show how .38 Special +P is frequently challenged to provide both good expansion and sufficient penetration to meet the standard being tested. This is due to the low pressure limit put on that cartridge. Factory .357 does not have any issues with that protocol. It has the same pressure as 9mm and higher powder and bullet capacity in the case. If anything, it can over-penetrate in protocols where that is even a concern and as long as the bullet construction is good, it will expand reliably. .357 Magnum can both expand and penetrate more than sufficiently to exceed the demands of that protocol, but it often does so with excess recoil. Good wisdom chooses a 357 gun with more than the shortest barrel and starts with adequate 38 Special +P ammo (some people have mentioned specific loads already). If you want to step up to hotter ammo from there, shoot "100%" on qualifications with the .38+P first.

Lucky Gunner did not test .45 Long Colt, but the ballistics of standard pressure ammo is very similar to .45 ACP (that was originally the very intention of .45 ACP, to duplicate the ballistics of black powder 45 LC with a smokeless powder). What we notice about .45 is that when it expands well, it often penetrates sufficiently (per that test's criteria) but not deeply. The bullets that penetrated beyond 18" are mostly the ones that did not expand. There is no question 45 performs outstanding on that test, but its lack of deeper penetration with expanding bullets makes it a poor choice for large game or animal defense. At standard pressures with expanding bullets, .357 Magnum is a better penetrator. It's not because the expanded diameter is smaller, it's often not. It mostly has to do with the higher pressure that 357 allows. Now if we go above the very low standard pressure of .45, and use a "Ruger Only" .45 LC load, it can certainly be made to penetrate better than .357 Magnum. The heavier bullets carry momentum to a longer range and they're just going to go deeper, as would .44 Magnum provided heavy-for-caliber bullets with high sectional density.

I know the big bore guys will decry the performance of 357 for big cattle and bug bears. I won't argue with them. If you really have those kind of problems to solve, knock yourself out. The only inherent disadvantage of .44 or .45 in a revolver is the wider cartridge requires either lower capacity (5-shot Model 69 L frame) or a higher bore axis (6 shot Model 29 or 25/625 N frame). Eight 357's fit into the cylinder of an N frame, 7 in an L frame, and 6 fit into a K frame. The taller frames for the larger cylinders and higher bore axis result in more torque under recoil for a given load. The smaller frames have less of this, but lower capacity. If you really need 44 Magnum, it's the only way to go, but if you're shooting 44 Special or .45 ACP, I'm not sure the tradeoff for the tall frame or lower capacity is worth it.

Your bias against S&W is irrational. The locks don't have to mean that much to you if you simply choose to not let them bother you. There is no evidence that Rugers can handle anything more than a S&W unless you're comparing radically different models like a Model 25 vs a Super Redhawk. Smith has the 460 for that. I have more than one of each (S&W and Ruger) and there is really no cause for prejudice. S&W has long offered DA features that Ruger is only starting to with their Super GP100. Ruger offers single actions that I don't think S&W ever has. If you really need a first and only handgun for a while, it's not wise to choose from irrational bias or to make a choice in extremes from what most people find work well for them. You've admitted to not knowing much about revolvers, but you're trying to out-think everyone who knows a lot about them. If you convince yourself that you've gained enough understanding to go against all their advice, you will probably regret it.

There's this thing.... it's called "Ruger only loads". I've never heard of a "S&W only load".
 
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