S&W Governor?

jski said:

Even Hornady’s 410 Critical Defense loads?

Click to expand...

was watching a jerry miculek video last night. he shot both the hornady and federal self defense rounds into ballistic gel at 15 feet or so. One of the pellets in both rounds went through the whole block and all of the pellets went in 12 inches or more. I would say that is adequate penetration. And oddly he reported the pellets in both showed some signs of flattening/expanding.

ilbob said:

was watching a jerry miculek video last night. he shot both the hornady and federal self defense rounds into ballistic gel at 15 feet or so. One of the pellets in both rounds went through the whole block and all of the pellets went in 12 inches or more. I would say that is adequate penetration. And oddly he reported the pellets in both showed some signs of flattening/expanding.

Click to expand...

Most of the deformation of 410 buckshot happens in the gun under set-back acceleration in the gun. When I was playing with dad's Judge a few years ago with some buckshot I remember shooting it into wet phone books and digging the #000 pellets out and them having rifling marks all the way around the rear most pellet. The pressure behind and the mass of the two pellets in front mashed that rear pellet flat down to a 45 caliber disk. Some of the new Judge/Governor specific loads seem to address this with better harder buckshot but I would still bet that any deformation you see in 410 buckshot loads is all happening in the gun not the gel.

ilbob said:

I am not convinced a revolver is the end all of self defense firearms, much less a revolver firing a .410 shot shell.

As something to shoot at the range for fun it probably has utility. For self defense, I am unconvinced.

Having said that, it is probably better than a sharp stick, at least most of the time. Might make a usable, but not ideal, club too.

Click to expand...

As much as I like my revolvers, I wouldnt consider any of them, including this, for a daily carry gun these days. Not even as a back up. Lots of better choices there.

What I do see these being good for is, as a supplemental type gun with a specific use. Im not ditching my daily carry for it, just adding to it.

I think these type guns have been aimed more at a specific market, with the pistol sized shotgun being a big selling point. Like anything else, you get out of them what you put into them, and I think a lot of people think, because its "a shotgun", they dont have to do much but point and shoot. How could you miss? Right?

mcb said:

Most of the deformation of 410 buckshot happens in the gun under set-back acceleration in the gun. When I was playing with dad's Judge a few years ago with some buckshot I remember shooting it into wet phone books and digging the #000 pellets out and them having rifling marks all the way around the rear most pellet. The pressure behind and the mass of the two pellets in front mashed that rear pellet flat down to a 45 caliber disk. Some of the new Judge/Governor specific loads seem to address this with better harder buckshot but I would still bet that any deformation you see in 410 buckshot loads is all happening in the gun not the gel.

Click to expand...

that was his thought as well. but the flattening might be advantageous to stopping power regardless of why.

ilbob said:

I am not convinced a revolver is the end all of self defense firearms, much less a revolver firing a .410 shot shell.

As something to shoot at the range for fun it probably has utility. For self defense, I am unconvinced.

Having said that, it is probably better than a sharp stick, at least most of the time. Might make a usable, but not ideal, club too.

Click to expand...

You and me too , I favor a semi auto for real possible gunfights. My default is 1911 .45acp , trained for 50 years and killed with it. When thought about deploying to combat in the New Millenium I gravitated to high capacity double action action .an pretty much stayed that way. But realistically I have those in warbelts handy enough once out of bed and dressed for action. For 7 yards surprise the .410 revolvers with proper ammo will do the trick on human or less than giant animals. I allways conceal a S&W 442 with the now new Federal Personal defense wadcutter HP ammo . I have allways had a snubby .38 to back up the main defense weapon , be it .45, .40 or .45 (or even .44 mag in big bear country) . When I bought the public defender I was very close to buying a Charter Arms .45 Colt snubby. I am glad I chose the stainless Public defender instead ! A Governor would have been good too, just a little bit too big for concealment for me, but I like that the Govenor shoots .45 ACP too
, .

ilbob said:

that was his thought as well. but the flattening might be advantageous to stopping power regardless of why.

Click to expand...

The problem is spheres fly fairly straight, flatten disks do not. They tend to fly pretty wild. Look up high speed video of people shooting stacks of dimes. The flatten buckshot is not that bad but the dynamics are similar.

Dibbs said:

The Gov has a generous, and easy to control grip, not to mention six shots.

Click to expand...

But when will you need six shots to kill a snake?

mcb said:

The problem is spheres fly fairly straight, flatten disks do not. They tend to fly pretty wild. Look up high speed video of people shooting stacks of dimes. The flatten buckshot is not that bad but the dynamics are similar.

Click to expand...

Miculek shot at a steel target at about 15 feet. the grouping of the projectiles of the hornady and federal ammo looked to be about 2-3 inches. About the same as in the gelatin as far as I could tell. That is about perfect as a defensive load at that distance.

AK103K said:

I wasnt insulting your shooting, just questioning your results, and some of your comments.

If its not the gun, and/or maybe the ammo, then whats left? Im no crack shot, and have no difficulty making good hits with mine, pistol rounds or 410, so your experiences are out of the norm, especially with the buckshot, at least from what I've seen. If you can make good hits with the pistol calibers, the buck shouldnt be any problem.

It sounds like you have little to no experience with these guns and a dislike of them for some reason, which is fine, just say that, instead of making questionable statements and pushing them as facts.

Click to expand...

LOL, and that not insulting ?.

Well as a retired LEO who was a firearms instructor --- I expect I am at least a fair shot at the least.

And I still stand on the FACT that if your called to take "that shot" you know the one---- where a loved one is close.

Having that anchor for a small boat,that is a great tool IF you fear snakes and cannot hit one at 25' with a .22 or whatever is in your holster = THEN,and only then do you want a .410 that is partly rifled.

Just enough to put a spin on a VERY small buckshot load,then make sure those pellets [ all 5 of them ] go astray and hit the wrong party.

Its your life AND your loved ones that could suffer,but being the dead eye that you proclaim = don't sweat it.

G'day to all who need an anchor for a small boat.

scaatylobo said:

LOL, and that not insulting ?.

Well as a retired LEO who was a firearms instructor --- I expect I am at least a fair shot at the least.

And I still stand on the FACT that if your called to take "that shot" you know the one---- where a loved one is close.

Having that anchor for a small boat,that is a great tool IF you fear snakes and cannot hit one at 25' with a .22 or whatever is in your holster = THEN,and only then do you want a .410 that is partly rifled.

Just enough to put a spin on a VERY small buckshot load,then make sure those pellets [ all 5 of them ] go astray and hit the wrong party.

Its your life AND your loved ones that could suffer,but being the dead eye that you proclaim = don't sweat it.

G'day to all who need an anchor for a small boat.

Click to expand...

Hey, if youre an ex instructor and youre insulted, thats all on you. If you really were at least a fair shot, we wouldnt be having this discussion.

Those of us that do have them and do shoot them, seem to have a totally different experience than what you describe and want people to believe. Kind of makes you wonder if you have any kind of experience with them, especially since you say you were an instructor and a fair shot.

Id suggest trying and getting a hold of one and really shooting it, so we can have a conversation based on actual experience, and not just on your dislike of them.

And not to insult anyone, but if you cant put all four of those pieces of 000 buck from one round of that Federal buck load, into a headshot, like I showed you above, from 10 "YARDS", then maybe you need to be insulted. You certainly are not qualified to teach anyone to shoot.

At the 25 "FOOT" distances you said you cant keep them on the target, my gun shoots them into about 2". So hows that work? What am I doing wrong? How about the others above, who seem to have no trouble making good hits at 25 "YARDS", when you say it cant be done at 25 "FEET"?

I really get the impression you just dont like them, and are simply pushing that point as hard as you can go. The not liking them is fine, we all like what we like, you just dont have to make up stuff trying to prove your point.

And if you want one for a boat anchor, knock yourself out. I prefer to shoot mine, and I dont have any problem doing so.

Hows that old saying go?...... "Those that can, do. Those who cant, teach." Sounds more and more like theres a lot of truth in that.

Okay then. I’m glad we got that out. Now how about revisiting this topic without all of the emotion. I have shot them as well as a number of Taurus Judge configurations and frankly I don’t find them all that compelling. If I need snake protection I can use CCI shot shells and they’ll get it done and frankly I want the revolver to shoot the revolver round well as I believe a properly loaded .45 Colt is considerably more terminally effective than a .410 handgun load. But whatever. IMHO.

Seems the Judge/Governor type revolvers are firearms folks love or love to hate. Generally these types of threads always end up as a pissin' match between the two. While I don't own one and don't have the hankerin' to in the near future, I have shot both and find them to be reasonable accurate for the ammo used. They were relatively easy to handle with both .45 and .410 loads and seemed to make a mess on melons regardless of what ammo was used. I think for certain folks and certain scenarios, they are fine. Don't see why folks get so anxious to dis them. Are they any different than Mare's leg levers? How about those pistol grip shotguns? Then there's those so called "braces" for semi auto pistols........

Seems they sell well and are fairly popular. I don't see very many of them in the used gun cases, at least the LGSs I stop at. Why can't we just let these types of threads die and let folks enjoy what they have? There's a ton of guns out there I have no desire for, nor do I think they are practical. What of it? How does it affect me when someone else buys one?

buck460XVR said:

Seems they sell well and are fairly popular. I don't see very many of them in the used gun cases, at least the LGSs I stop at.

Click to expand...

They seem to sell pretty well around here, and it seems too, they are often back in, and out, pretty quick too.

The Governor I bought was used, and was sold from another shop, less than a year before it was in the shop I bought it. The guy who bought it before me left the original paperwork in the box. The gun looked to be new when I bought it too.

Up until I got this one, I pretty much had them pegged as a gimmick. Now that I have one, and have shot it a good bit, I have a different outlook on them. Like I said, it wouldnt be my first choice for most things, but I can see they might have a place in certain instances.

It does seem though, the main market for these is for those who likely are looking for something to have, and think that thats all they need to do, is "have".

I also think the reason you see so many back for sale used is, once those people actually shoot one, and find out that all of them tend to have some pretty stout recoil, and handguns arent as easy to shoot as they thought, even with shot loads, and they bring them back, and get something easier on them, like an Airweight type 2" 38 or one of the Bond Arms derringers. See a lot of them for sale used too.

I would be interested to see how the New inserts work with"rifled" 9mm

Vern Humphrey said:

But when will you need six shots to kill a snake?

Click to expand...

Well, if you walk the swamps, and you go more than five feet, you may see more than one snake, especially during the rainy season, when snakes are either looking to get dry, or for higher ground. All this blather about guns not having enough rounds, NOW, you're whining, because there are sufficient rounds to have extra?

I can't remember ever seeing a snake 25 feet away. The snakes around here are pretty well camouflaged. I generally have to be about to step on one before I even notice it.

I bought a Judge around five years ago because I'd come into some money and it seemed interesting.

It's the model that shoots 3" magnum shells. I don't know how big of a difference that makes, but 00 buckshot pellets seem to penetrate pretty well at SD type distances.

It shoots 45colt okay for a snub with fixed sights, not noticeably worse than my CA Pitbull in 45acp, for instance. On the other hand it's WAY bulkier than the Pitbull.

To me it's a novelty. It's fun to blow up rotten squash and such on BiL's property. It would be kind of awkward to carry, and I haven't seriously considered it for HD.

On the other hand, I respect it. It's serviceable as a short-barreled 45colt if needed. And if it's loaded with 3" magnum 00 buckshot, that is 30 pellets of 32 caliber that can all be fired off within a few seconds. That is a whole lot of lead.

"And I still stand on the FACT that if your called to take "that shot" you know the one---- where a loved one is close."
now I agree that is a valid point! Being highly trained for more than 20 years in taking hostage releasing cabeza shots I would NOT do so with my little .410 pistol. Neither would I lay it down! There are other ways around that problem PS I load the SG next to bed with all slugs for that reason .

Gordon said:

"And I still stand on the FACT that if your called to take "that shot" you know the one---- where a loved one is close."
now I agree that is a valid point! Being highly trained for more than 20 years in taking hostage releasing cabeza shots I would NOT do so with my little .410 pistol. Neither would I lay it down! There are other ways around that problem PS I load the SG next to bed with all slugs for that reason .

Click to expand...

Yup, and that would apply to a shotgun as well. Horses for courses...

Im not saying Id take that shot with the .410 load either, if there was a choice, but from what Ive seen with mine, it would still be very doable at the distances most would take the shot (assuming they were capable) with a normal pistol caliber.

And truthfully, if I "had" to, Im comfortable enough with it now that I probably would. What choice do you have, when you "have" to? Can you make the shot with what you carry?

The Federal Buck load out of my gun shoots fist-sized groups consistently out to around 15 yards, like you see in the pic above. At 5-7 yards, its basically that tight, three-finger group.

Then again, how many work on that type shot on a regular basis with what they carry and would be comfortable with the shot anyway?

Some of us do actually practice just that on a regular basis too.

These were all from about 10 yards, from a ready position start. Present and shoot.

Those Governor Federal buck groups, are basically in that range at that distance.

The hostage shot isn't trivial. I've done that in classes with shotgun, carbine and handgun. Hope that never happens. I do think the expression on the hostage's face is telling the male significant other that even if she survives, you are sleeping on the couch for awhile.

I wouldn't go near that with a Judge or Governor. You have to pattern your shotgun and pick a load that will give you a usable smaller spread if you think, you are going to try this at home, kids.

For the original question, it's a gimmick. Taurus advertised the Judge as some kind of super weapon with the 410 loads. Fake news.

GEM said:

You have to pattern your shotgun and pick a load that will give you a usable smaller spread if you think, you are going to try this at home, kids.

Click to expand...

Absolutely! You have to work out things with ANYTHING you might use, and then, once you get it worked out, you have to stay up on things with regular practice.

The only way you actually know what works, is to try it, figure it out, and do it. It either works or it doesn't, but it takes time and effort to figure that out. You dont get there just by reading about it.

Not saying you wont learn from reading, you certainly can, but you always have to prove/vet things for yourself in actual use and regular practice.

AK103K said:

Im not saying Id take that shot with the .410 load either, if there was a choice, but from what Ive seen with mine, it would still be very doable at the distances most would take the shot (assuming they were capable) with a normal pistol caliber.

And truthfully, if I "had" to, Im comfortable enough with it now that I probably would. What choice do you have, when you "have" to? Can you make the shot with what you carry?

The Federal Buck load out of my gun shoots fist-sized groups consistently out to around 15 yards, like you see in the pic above. At 5-7 yards, its basically that tight, three-finger group.

Then again, how many work on that type shot on a regular basis with what they carry and would be comfortable with the shot anyway?

Some of us do actually practice just that on a regular basis too.

These were all from about 10 yards, from a ready position start. Present and shoot.

Those Governor Federal buck groups, are basically in that range at that distance.

View attachment 910511
View attachment 910512
View attachment 910513

Click to expand...

Atta boy

AK103K said:

Im not saying Id take that shot with the .410 load either, if there was a choice, but from what Ive seen with mine, it would still be very doable at the distances most would take the shot (assuming they were capable) with a normal pistol caliber.

And truthfully, if I "had" to, Im comfortable enough with it now that I probably would. What choice do you have, when you "have" to? Can you make the shot with what you carry?

The Federal Buck load out of my gun shoots fist-sized groups consistently out to around 15 yards, like you see in the pic above. At 5-7 yards, its basically that tight, three-finger group.

Then again, how many work on that type shot on a regular basis with what they carry and would be comfortable with the shot anyway?

Some of us do actually practice just that on a regular basis too.

These were all from about 10 yards, from a ready position start. Present and shoot.

Those Governor Federal buck groups, are basically in that range at that distance.

View attachment 910511
View attachment 910512
View attachment 910513

Click to expand...

Wait! I must have missed something! When did Emilio Estevez take Carrie Fisher hostage?

GEM said:

The hostage shot isn't trivial. I've done that in classes with shotgun, carbine and handgun. Hope that never happens. I do think the expression on the hostage's face is telling the male significant other that even if she survives, you are sleeping on the couch for awhile.

I wouldn't go near that with a Judge or Governor. You have to pattern your shotgun and pick a load that will give you a usable smaller spread if you think, you are going to try this at home, kids.

For the original question, it's a gimmick. Taurus advertised the Judge as some kind of super weapon with the 410 loads. Fake news.

Click to expand...

SPOT ON, if you don't go to the "dance" with ballet shoes on,you don't have to dance with them.

No way would I carry such a 'thing' as I own and shoot so many other pistols SO much better.

And there is NO CHANCE that a stray pellet will hit my loved one.

If I were as good as the experts here and know that I cannot miss with so little space to spare , I would carry a Mossberg Shockwave