Commercially reloaded .45 ACP 230gr plated @1200fps!

I've had an instance where a shooter in the lane next to me caused my optical chrono to trigger readings. The only thing I could think of was the shock wave from his gun (a really loud gun, don't remember the caliber) was shaking my screens enough to trigger the sensors. 1200fps is very close, just a little over, the speed of sound. The shock wave would arrive just before the bullet, if you are expecting normal velocity from those bullets. So, I think it is possible that it is a combination of things causing the unexpected readings.

tcoz said:

They're definitely 45ACP rounds and I weighed ten random bullets which were all 230gr. I asked him about the recoil and he said that the seemed a little hot, but unbeknownst to me he's already shot a couple hundred of them so he doesn't really have anything to compare them with. I first thought it had to be a chronograph error but we ran my 9mm and .308 rounds and his .223 rounds through it and all of them were exactly where they should have been. In addition, one of his 7 round mags yielded an ES of only 9 fps.

I'm really puzzled about this. He's going to contact the company that he bought them from but I'll be surprised if that leads anywhere.

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Different powder, different powder residue, different powder residue going over the sensors. And then, off axis error causes problems. The rifle data surprises me. When I chronograph rifle cartridges I put my chronograph way out, because unburnt powder residue confuses the sensors.



When I chronographed my black powder musket, I had the chronograph about 20 yards in front of the firing point!

I am of the opinion that 1200 fps 230 grain bullets would have blown the case head. If the cases looked like these, maybe 1200 fps.

edwardware said:

Say what? How does the sharpie tell you the velocity?

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Take a sharpie, write the expected velocity on the bullet, and when it flies over the chrono the sensors read the numbers. Apologies, I just had to.... It’s the CovidCoronaCrap in action...
As others have said, darkening the bullets sometimes help the sensors pick them up.

When I first read the OP I figured there was no way any powder could get that velocity, but than I went to Hodgdons website and looked at all 230 grain 45 ACP recipes and WST's max charge is listed as 3.3 grains for 767 FPS. I have no idea what 4.7 would do but it is a 50% increase over max. I doubt it'd do 1200 FPS and I'm sure the pressure would cause brass issues, but I wouldn't be too surprised if it was pushing close to 1000 to 1100 or more.

reddog81 said:

When I first read the OP I figured there was no way any powder could get that velocity, but than I went to Hodgdons website and looked at all 230 grain 45 ACP recipes and WST's max charge is listed as 3.3 grains for 767 FPS. I have no idea what 4.7 would do but it is a 50% increase over max. I doubt it'd do 1200 FPS and I'm sure the pressure would cause brass issues, but I wouldn't be too surprised if it was pushing close to 1000 to 1100 or more.

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WST doesn't match the description of the powder the OP gave us.

Was there any noticeable muzzle flash, or extremely dirty residue left after firing the rounds? I’m kinda thinking unburnt powder or something may have been read. If there was a huge fireball then perhaps the lighting from the flash was messing with the chrono. How close was it again?

Have you used that G2 chronograph on other loads/calibers? Did you get expected results then?

Texas10mm said:

WST doesn't match the description of the powder the OP gave us.

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But if there is one powder out there that can get close to that velocity there are probably others out there that can do similar. I'm not familiar with the characteristics of all powders out there.

i am at least 12 feet away from the chrony when i'm testing. 15 feet may be better for you, just in case.

luck,

murf

Toprudder said:

I've had an instance where a shooter in the lane next to me caused my optical chrono to trigger readings. The only thing I could think of was the shock wave from his gun (a really loud gun, don't remember the caliber) was shaking my screens enough to trigger the sensors. 1200fps is very close, just a little over, the speed of sound. The shock wave would arrive just before the bullet, if you are expecting normal velocity from those bullets. So, I think it is possible that it is a combination of things causing the unexpected readings.

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You may be onto something here. I had trouble getting velocities for my 460 S&W Mag from my optical chronograph.

Charlie98 said:

Oddly enough, you are right!

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Nothing odd about it. Your comment that 4.7 grains of 296 (or other really slow powder) would produce 1200 fps was the odd part.

I would contact the commercial reloader and see what they have to say about it.

tcoz said:

I asked him about the recoil and he said that the seemed a little hot, but unbeknownst to me he's already shot a couple hundred of them so he doesn't really have anything to compare them with.

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He doesn't really have anything to compare them too? If he's getting 1200 fps with a 230 grainer, there is nothing to compare it to. It will be wicked on him and the gun. Coupla hundred of them already? Ouch. +p in .45 ACP is at most 950fps with a 230 grainer, and it's recoil is significantly higher than standard .45 ACP loads. I'm surprised the mag could even keep up with the slide velocity and not fail to feed, if those bullets really were pushing 1200 fps.

reddog81 said:

When I first read the OP I figured there was no way any powder could get that velocity, but than I went to Hodgdons website and looked at all 230 grain 45 ACP recipes and WST's max charge is listed as 3.3 grains for 767 FPS. I have no idea what 4.7 would do but it is a 50% increase over max. I doubt it'd do 1200 FPS and I'm sure the pressure would cause brass issues, but I wouldn't be too surprised if it was pushing close to 1000 to 1100 or more.

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WST? Max charge is 4.9 with 848 fps. I'm loading 4.3 for ~750 fps currently. Or, if you were looking at LRN, it is 4.3@812.

DanK3Pos said:

WST? Max charge is 4.9 with 848 fps. I'm loading 4.3 for ~750 fps currently. Or, if you were looking at LRN, it is 4.3@812.

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I just checked and Titewad was the powder with a max charge of 3.3 grains.

...230 grain .45 ACP commercial reloads that average over 1200 fps...

...That have been fired hundreds of times through what I assume is a stock R1 1911 without breaking anything or even making the shooter go "DAMN!"...

...That had an extreme spread of 9 fps in a 7 round mag of what I assume were mixed headstamp cases...

...That do all of the above with 4.7 grains of powder...

It's either a ballistic miracle or some kinda chronograph screwup.

I'm betting on option 2.

From what the OP has stated, chronograph error is unlikely. He checked three other guns and obtained expected velocities. One mag of the “commercial” .45 reloads had an ES less that 10 fps. These point to correct chrono speeds, not “optical errors” or blast from nearby shooters.

But 4.7 grains of any commercial ball powder won’t give 1200 fps at acceptable pressures. And that velocity will really beat up an M1911 without the right buffer and spring. The .460 Rowland gets 1207 fps with 10.0 grains of powder, but at over 32,000 cup pressure (!). Something is way wrong here, and I doubt it’s the chronograph....


.

25-20 WCF said:

...One mag of the “commercial” .45 reloads had an ES less that 10 fps...

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That's kinda my point.

The average box of commercial. 45 ACP reloads will have numerous different headstamps with cases that are anywhere from 1x to ??x fired, with all the inconsistencies in case neck tension and crimp that implies.

When was the last time you fired 7 consecutive rounds from anything over a chronograph and got an ES of nine FPS? Let alone some gollywog, totally screwed up commercial reloads that are running 1200 FPS in a .45 auto with 4.7 grains of powder?

tcoz said:

...When I looked at the results, every round out of two mags (fired in a Remington R1 1911) was just over 1200 fps...

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It might be possible to get that kind of ballistic uniformity in a .45, but it'd take weight sorted bullets/cases and extreme attention to detail when loading, along with about 450 FPS less velocity.

Sorry, I'm still going with screwy chrono readings.

I tried to get 1,200fps in a 1911 around 20 years ago.
I think I worked up to something like 12.5gr of bluedot, then my gun stopped cycling because the barrel bulged ever so slightly. Luckily I have multiple barrels so I got the gun apart with out even needing a hammer and tossed that barrel and put in another one and was good to go.
Figured that idea stupid and went out and bought a 44mag.

I would say it was probably 185gr bullets.

Swampman said:

That's kinda my point.

The average box of commercial. 45 ACP reloads will have numerous different headstamps with cases that are anywhere from 1x to ??x fired, with all the inconsistencies in case neck tension and crimp that implies.

When was the last time you fired 7 consecutive rounds from anything over a chronograph and got an ES of nine FPS? Let alone some gollywog, totally screwed up commercial reloads that are running 1200 FPS in a .45 auto with 4.7 grains of powder?

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The extreme spread statistic is irrelevant. It's meaningless. A red herring. Wide and narrow extreme spreads happen by chance, even with the same ammo. It's a probability thing. Ignore it.

748 said:

I would say it was probably 185gr bullets.

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See post #8.

fxvr5 said:

The extreme spread statistic is irrelevant. It's meaningless. A red herring. Wide and narrow extreme spreads happen by chance, even with the same ammo. It's a probability thing....

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Or MAYBE it's a chrono giving bad readings with that particular load thing...

Swampman said:

Or MAYBE it's a chrono giving bad readings with that particular load thing...

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However you look at it, it means nothing. It tells us nothing about why the readings were what they were. It's simply not relevant to the discussion.

Fast powders like Titegroup or WST will not get that velocity in a 45acp pushing a 230gr bullet period or at least not with out the cases extracting like Slamfire posted . With out going into great detail . Fast powders expand very fast filling any available space creating more and more pressure very quickly . If you try to push a heavy for caliber bullet like the 230gr 45acp bullet using fast powders . The big heavy 230gr bullet can not get out of the way fast enough of the expanding gases resulting in the those very fast gasses having know where to expand . This results in a huge pressure spike and a BOOM before the bullet leaves the muzzle . Usually blowing out the case head if you're lucky like Slamfire's cases show . Slower powders give more velocity because they allow the bullet to stay ahead of the max pressure spike which happens further down the bore .

Just making up numbers but here's an example

A fast powder like Titegroup will reach it's peak pressure with the bullet only 1 or 2 inches down the barrel while a slower powder like W-296 reaches it's peak pressure when the bullet is 3 or 4 inches down the barrel . They both may have got to a peak pressure of 16k psi but the W296 pushed the bullet at or near that 16k-psi longer because it was slower getting there pushing the bullet harder longer resulting in it creating more velocity .

Assuming that is true , I agree the slower powders tend to need more powder to reach those velocities . Example , In 357 CFE need 7.5gr to reach a specific velocity but to reach that same velocity with H-110 you need 13gr . Yes I'm being very general because I really don't feel like sitting here for 30 min writing 20 paragraphs to explain all this haha sorry , just remember this info was worth every penny you paid for it

I'm now leaning towards the muzzle blast being the problem . Many times I've had that give me problems to include other shooter in the lanes next to me cause my Chrono to go wacky on me .

Metal God said:

Fast powders like Titegroup or WST will not get that velocity in a 45acp pushing a 230gr bullet period or at least not with out the cases extracting like Slamfire posted . With out going into great detail . Fast powders expand very fast filling any available space creating more and more pressure very quickly . If you try to push a heavy for caliber bullet like the 230gr 45acp bullet using fast powders . The big heavy 230gr bullet can not get out of the way fast enough of the expanding gases resulting in the those very fast gasses having know where to expand . This results in a huge pressure spike and a BOOM before the bullet leaves the muzzle . Usually blowing out the case head if you're lucky like Slamfire's cases show . Slower powders give more velocity because they allow the bullet to stay ahead of the max pressure spike which happens further down the bore .

Just making up numbers but here's an example

A fast powder like Titegroup will reach it's peak pressure with the bullet only 1 or 2 inches down the barrel while a slower powder like W-296 reaches it's peak pressure when the bullet is 3 or 4 inches down the barrel . They both may have got to a peak pressure of 16k psi but the W296 pushed the bullet at or near that 16k-psi longer because it was slower getting there pushing the bullet harder longer resulting in it creating more velocity .

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I agree that you're making up numbers. And they aren't even close to reality.

Pressure curves are well known and peak pressure is achieved shortly after the bullet starts moving. Here's an example of 45 Auto from Quickload software.

230 Grain Sierra FMJ seated at 1.270" Sierra manual. Powder charges are max charge weights.

Titegroup, 4.9 grains, Bullet travel at Pmax (peak of pressure) = 0.20".

Power Pistol, 6.9 grains, Bullet travel at Pmax (peak of pressure) = 0.21".

A#7, 9.4 grains, Bullet travel at Pmax (peak of pressure) = 0.22".

Peak pressure is achieved in less than 1/4" movement with all three powders.