How does all lead bullets perform on thinned skin game?

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ANATION

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Just like the title says. Have any of you used lead cast bullets, 45/70, 44 mag, 357 etc, either from a rifle or handgun on deer or similar sized game? Will it break bone and penetrate consistently at close to moderate distances, such as within 100 yards? I assume it will if you have enough velocity but I've never done it personally and always look for first hand experience. Thanks.
 
Meplat size helps determine wound channel size, so I stay away from semi-wadcutters particularly when there are much better bullets available (look no further than LBT for flat-nosed hardcast designs). However, if your menu includes whitetail, a violently expanding bullet is a good idea. Don’t know who commercially casts any hollow-point cast bullets, but will do some digging. I know someone who makes them and has a lot of success with them, but am not sure if he sells them. Let me check.
 
I'm not able to really explain why, but heavy for caliber hard cast flat nose bullets have proven to offer almost unbelievable penetration. I've seen test results where 147 gr 9mm bullets penetrated over 5 FEET in ballistics gel. That is far better than FMJ or any other bullet design. They also tend to penetrate in a straight line and break bone. Normal bullets tend to deflect off bone rather than break it. It's hard for me to understand why the difference in so great, but it is also hard to argue with the results of the data.

While that deep penetration is what you want on really large animals, I've also seen lots of data showing where an expanding bullet puts game down faster than those that penetrate deeper. As long as it penetrates enough to reach vitals

With the cartridges you've listed soft lead bullets on the heavier end of the scale should be OK on those game animals. Deer and hogs aren't hard to kill, most any bullet works. I'd think bullets on the lighter end or toward the mid weights might impact too fast and limit penetration on bigger game though.
 
Unless it’s a varmint-type bullet being way overdriven, it shouldn’t fragment. Also never had a quality (read: A-frame) expanding bullet fragment even on heavy bone. On soft skinned animals I’ve never seen lead expanding bullets fragment at moderate velocities.
 
I used cast bullets for handgun hunting exclusively, until they were banned for the purpose in my state. The great majority have been LBT shapes. They penetrated completely and exited almost every time, with pigs being the most common target.

Because I do so much bullet casting I have my blood lead levels checked periodically. They never have been high - and I eat everything I kill.
 
ANATION said:
Just like the title says. Have any of you used lead cast bullets, 45/70, 44 mag, 357 etc, either from a rifle or handgun on deer or similar sized game? Will it break bone and penetrate consistently at close to moderate distances, such as within 100 yards? I assume it will if you have enough velocity but I've never done it personally and always look for first hand experience. Thanks.
Click to expand...

MaxP said:
Meplat size helps determine wound channel size, so I stay away from semi-wadcutters particularly when there are much better bullets available (look no further than LBT for flat-nosed hardcast designs). However, if your menu includes whitetail, a violently expanding bullet is a good idea. Don’t know who commercially casts any hollow-point cast bullets, but will do some digging. I know someone who makes them and has a lot of success with them, but am not sure if he sells them. Let me check.
Click to expand...
Another member put me into these looking for my .38 to have soft hollow points at the time:
https://www.mattsbullets.com/index....ducts_id=285&zenid=sf5p4tm1ko6j0f0n9fv9tkft24
As for performance, I've found that matching bullet and velocity to the application makes for a violent takedown.
 
I cast 45 caliber lead bullets and shoot them in sabots in my 50 caliber muzzle loader. So far I’ve never failed to have an exit hole regardless of angle. The only lead bullet I ever recovered was a 50 caliber Minnie that was fired into a big doe facing me lengthwise. She had bent down to graze and the bullet entered between the shoulders but just barely missed the spine. I found it butted up against the femur when she was processed. If it hadn’t hit the femur it probably would have gone completely through longwise. And that’s from a relatively low powered black powder gun.
 
ANATION said:
Just like the title says. Have any of you used lead cast bullets, 45/70, 44 mag, 357 etc, either from a rifle or handgun on deer or similar sized game? Will it break bone and penetrate consistently at close to moderate distances, such as within 100 yards? I assume it will if you have enough velocity but I've never done it personally and always look for first hand experience
Click to expand...

Well if 225 grains of pure lead in a .530 sphere, with a muzzle velocity of 1500 fps will go through the game and do this at 60 yards,

EARLY SEASON DOE for ML forum.jpg

Then I'd venture to guess something like this in .429 weighing 200 grains or more, at a similar muzzle velocity from something like a lever action rifle or single shot, would undoubtedly work well on an even larger deer.

44 200 grain.JPG

You see I'm using a larger diameter projectile, but it's soft lead. Yet it slams through ribs and out the other side. The bullet above would normally be made with bullet alloy which is harder and deforms less, and although gives a smaller hole, it's mass is centered along the axis of it's flight path, and so deep penetration after impact will be much more of a guarantee. When using lead or lead alloy bullets, I always suggest folks shouldn't fret about "deformation" or "mushrooming" and simply understand that a big hole is good; an entrance and exit hole is good; and lung shots or shoulder shots work quite well. I don't go for the heart, as often the animal is in enough brush that dipping my sights that low puts some grasses or other ground cover in the way, and besides, I like to eat the heart and taking out both lungs or hitting the shoulder/spine junction both are quite effective. The deer above was a through and through lung shot.

LD
 
For years I used a single action revolver in 45 long Colt to put deer in the freezer. My load recipe was and is a 260 grain cast lead bullet, 20/1alloy, over 38 grains of fffG black powder. This worked out to about 900-950 fps and gave complete penetration.

Kevin
 
MaxP said:
Unless it’s a varmint-type bullet being way overdriven, it shouldn’t fragment. Also never had a quality (read: A-frame) expanding bullet fragment even on heavy bone. On soft skinned animals I’ve never seen lead expanding bullets fragment at moderate velocities.
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You're mistaken. If you carefully measure the bullet before and after, you will see it certainly lost mass and that mass is likely in the meat. It doesn't take explosive fragmentation to contaminate meat.


Arkansas Paul said:
They don't ruin meat if you don't shoot them in the meat.
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This is also not true. I don't know where you're suggesting to shoot them, but if you strike just about anything with a jacketed lead hollowpoint, you will get fragmentation and lead debris in the meat. Any bone strike will certainly result in splatter. If you look at the x-rays, it's obvious.

Arkansas Paul said:
And I'm not concerned about lead poisoning either.
Click to expand...

Where is the wisdom in that?
 
To get back on track.
My experience has been using black powder.
Lead balls kill very well.
452 hard cast kill. But they lead to a long, but easy tracking job.
This was only on deer.
If I cast my own, it would be a soft large metplat bullet.
 
What I find interesting about labnoti’s x-ray is that the majority of the lead particles are inside the body cavity and not in the meat. Those adjacent to the bullet wound track would be excised during butchering.

Additionally, elemental lead ingested has relatively low toxicity and will be eliminated. It is salts and oxides of lead that are absorbable and represent a toxicity hazard.

Just don’t go around chewing on lead bullets, or eating lead paint, and you’ll be fine.

I’ve been exposed to lead from eating game, bullet casting, competition shooting, and operating aircraft burning lead containing fuels. (Aircraft owner, Pilot, flight instructor).
My lead levels have been tested and though very slightly elevated, it is far, far below the level where toxicity is a concern. Other parts of the country where background lead levels are higher, might be a different matter.(ie: lead levels in soil and water, ph of water and soil all play a part.
 
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MaxP said:
Meplat size helps determine wound channel size, so I stay away from semi-wadcutters particularly when there are much better bullets available (look no further than LBT for flat-nosed hardcast designs). However, if your menu includes whitetail, a violently expanding bullet is a good idea. Don’t know who commercially casts any hollow-point cast bullets, but will do some digging. I know someone who makes them and has a lot of success with them, but am not sure if he sells them. Let me check.
Click to expand...
I bought some nice looking, good shooting 140gr swchp .358 from Zero bullet company.
 
labnoti said:
You're mistaken. If you carefully measure the bullet before and after, you will see it certainly lost mass and that mass is likely in the meat. It doesn't take explosive fragmentation to contaminate meat.




This is also not true. I don't know where you're suggesting to shoot them, but if you strike just about anything with a jacketed lead hollowpoint, you will get fragmentation and lead debris in the meat. Any bone strike will certainly result in splatter. If you look at the x-rays, it's obvious.



Where is the wisdom in that?
Click to expand...

So. Lead free bullets only huh? Do you work for Barnes?
 
I have a purely selfish interest in my health and the health of the other people that would eat game I shot. I have no detectable level of lead in my blood and I want to keep it that way. Learn about the effects of lead on health and you will want to avoid eating it too.

I have less concern over the effect of lead rifle ammunition on the environment. Especially from me -- the mass of rifle bullets I distribute is negligible. The US military distributes a much larger mass of rifle projectiles, and they developed the M855A1 round out of their concern. It turned out to be more effective than M193 also. The total mass all hunters distribute from shotguns was substantial enough that a lot of people thought it worth going to non-toxic shot for waterfowl. I won't argue with them either. I know that Clint Smith has a beautiful property in Oregon where he conducts his Thunder Ranch school. Students fire hundreds of thousands of rounds onto his land in the course of a year's classes, year after year. For almost all his classes he insists lead-free bullets be used. If you haven't been there, I really encourage you to check out some of the photos and video online:



After you watch the video, ask yourself if you owned that, would you let people dick it up with a metric s-load of lead toxin? Neither does Clint. You can call him a liberal, green-new-deal, environmental weenie to his face.
 
Argumentum ad verecundiam much? This argument is way off track. Clint Smith isn't eating the backstops. Clint Smith isn't any sort of authority on the matter. He made a decision he thought was prudent and that was it. It is his land. Clint had no problem with polluting land in Texas, which he didn't own.

The military didn't develop the M855A1 round out of their concern. They were forced into it after various violations that eventually got one of their ranges shut down by the EPA. https://www.americanrifleman.org/ar...ng-the-army-s-m855a1-standard-ball-cartridge/

Strangely, the claimed environmental concern of the military is exceptionally limited to the M855A1. Other calibers still shooting lead, depleted uranium, etc.
 
They ruin a lot of meat. Lead is toxic. Shoot monolithics or don't eat.
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I generally don’t eat the bullet hole on large game, I can’t say I have never found a pellet while eating dove. However, I have probably eaten more of them than any other animal, none have died from monolithic bullets though.

You will have more lead exposure shooting at an indoor range than eating an animal killed by lead.

I don't know where you're suggesting to shoot them, but if you strike just about anything with a jacketed lead hollowpoint, you will get fragmentation and lead debris in the meat. Any bone strike will certainly result in splatter. If you look at the x-rays, it's obvious.
Click to expand...

I don’t generally hunt with JHP’s but have killed them in a trap with them. Shoot them in the head and take the backstrap out, nothing but meat...

D0C13C81-D6DC-4EED-9371-329F5169FF06.jpeg

That said the buzzards might eat the bullet and poop it out in a artichokes or kale orchard, so you really should test everything you eat...
 
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