Unfortunate Armed Burglary

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GEM said:
1. Seems the guy was specifically targeted. Who knew that he had guns and the details of when he would be home, etc./

2. The house clearly had inadequate preparation for security.

3. We have the suggestion to fire warning shots in a neighborhood. Not good.

4. We seem not to have specific training for an intensive event. Gun handling is nice but not sufficient. Yes, many folks without training have won an incident but if you say 'train' - make it real

5. Having a gun on you if you can. Try this experiment. Have your guns scattered in many locations. Don't use real guns or truly be sure they are unloaded (still a risk). Sit in a common place, have two folks crash (simulated) the entrance, front or back. Have them go for you. Can you get to the gun that is stashed?

That's my takeaway from this.
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will do #5.

However, your point 1 is something I keep asking myself over and over again. They have staff that works for them. From the beginning I had raised this point with my relative that this is an inside job in a way that intruders just walked in, chose his house out of many in the street, timing, etc. to add information to this point he had recently sold a very large real estate which could be a factor as well.
 
el Godfather said:
Thats great but here are couple of questions for you: 1) do you live alone or have kids or other people in the as well?
I live with my trained wife and 2 cats that lack opposable thumbs.
2) the pistols you have stashed are they loaded chamber or empty?
Fully loaded, as this is the only way that they will function for their intended purpose.
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For years I have relied on motion sensors to alert me to movement outside my house. When we lived in the city, I would startle most folks by answering the door as they were about to push the button. As the IR sensor would alert me inside when they were off the street and entered our yard. So by the time they could reach the door, I too had time to get up, look out the window and make it to the door as well.

Now that we live outside the city I have an even larger buffer zone, I even have time to look busy when my wife turns off the road into our drive and coyotes don’t have much chance at all around the chicken coop. Not just audible alert but then I can picture in picture on the TV from outside CCTV’s or get up and look out to see what’s there.

In any case, the further in advance you have knowledge of impending danger, the better your chances of avoiding it are. Once they are in your house pointing firearms at you and your family, it’s a bit too late.
 
el Godfather said:
They have staff that works for them. From the beginning I had raised this point with my relative that this is an inside job in a way that intruders just walked in, chose his house out of many in the street, timing, etc. to add information to this point he had recently sold a very large real estate which could be a factor as well.
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This is something that really jumped out at me. I work in juvenile detention, which doesn't make me an expert by any means, but one thing I've learned is that by the by people don't GENERALLY randomly break into houses, much less armed and in groups of four. Generally the burglar/home invader knows the victim or knows someone who does (in one case, the kid's sister was a caretaker for the elderly man whose house the kid broke into, as an example). That's not to say random break-ins don't happen, they just aren't the norm.

Add in that they seemed to know what they were looking for, where people would be, etc., and at the very least someone who knows the inside of the house was involved even if only tangentially and not as one of the actual perpetrators.
 
I don’t know if it’s been mentioned yet, but against 4 armed intruders I think I would just do what they said and tell them take anything they want. I’m not John Wick and I don’t think it’s practical to think I could somehow fend them off without getting myself or a loved one shot. Sometimes it’s best to stand down. Sorry if that makes me sound weak but I’m just being practical.
 
SteadyD said:
I don’t know if it’s been mentioned yet, but against 4 armed intruders I think I would just do what they said and tell them take anything they want. I’m not John Wick and I don’t think it’s practical to think I could somehow fend them off without getting myself or a loved one shot. Sometimes it’s best to stand down. Sorry if that makes me sound weak but I’m just being practical.
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You're talking about 4 armed attackers that have you at gun point inside your home and in the OP's scenario you are unarmed. What you propose (standing down and letting them have what they want) is a logical position to take. Just be aware that they may want more than your TV. If that's the case you either let them do what they will with you and your loved ones or you make a last ditch effort, if you're likely to not survive the encounter either way.

Regardless, what we're discussing here is not letting it get to that point. Security measures that give you an advantage as well as being armed at all times.
 
It sounds like OPSEC was his first problem. Probably a little too loose-lipped about the contents of his home and the extent of his gun 'hobby'. If you're going to let your mouth run ahead too freely then you'd at least better have good locks that are engaged all but 30 seconds per day (ie unlocked while you're actually walking through the doorway, then re-locked behind you). I don't love my chances against four armed men but I like 'em a lot less if the fight starts with them in my house and my willy in my hands!
 
SteadyD said:
I don’t know if it’s been mentioned yet, but against 4 armed intruders I think I would just do what they said and tell them take anything they want. I’m not John Wick and I don’t think it’s practical to think I could somehow fend them off without getting myself or a loved one shot. Sometimes it’s best to stand down. Sorry if that makes me sound weak but I’m just being practical.
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Question is how to prevent that from happening.
 
The home situation sounds a lot like the setups in South Africa. The walls are put up to keep folks out but they tend to be easily breached. The more security minded folks down there also harden and keeps the doors locked with bars on the windows.

My doors can withstand several blows from a SWAT style ram. They would be better off going for the windows then to take on my doors. Hopefully they don’t know that.

The need for security is always at odds with just plain living (and enjoying) your life. I’m of the mind to not worry about the things that have lower likelihood of happening and focusing on the higher odds items.
 
el Godfather said:
Question is how to prevent that from happening.
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Your original post mentioned that this incident caused you to prepare by hiding guns around the house. I’m just saying regardless of how many guns I may have access to, I don’t see myself easily fending off four armed men with their guns already drawn. The advice about making it harder for people to enter is sound, but if four armed men do manage to enter, having access to firearms doesn’t change the severe disadvantage you have regarding numbers.
 
I agree in the case of breach the odds against the resident get higher and become insurmountable if the such number of people weapons drawn show up on him.
 
SteadyD said:
I don’t know if it’s been mentioned yet, but against 4 armed intruders I think I would just do what they said and tell them take anything they want. I’m not John Wick and I don’t think it’s practical to think I could somehow fend them off without getting myself or a loved one shot. Sometimes it’s best to stand down. Sorry if that makes me sound weak but I’m just being practical.
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I am a gambler by nature, everything from poker tournaments to craps to the stock market. Still that is a massive gamble I would not want to make. I personally know people who were executed after being robbed and not for expensive items. I think i would just take my chances in a shootout.

I agree with the OPSEC problem. 4 armed men are so unusual, I imagine it's not a random break in. Really risky with people home. I think it's very difficult to harden a modern home in suburbia. You basically need an alarm system and dog (s). Lot's of noise is a deterrent but not a guarantee. I am more in 1942bull's camp. Know where the fatal funnels are and have a plan.
 
If he carries a firearm and still couldn't access it in time to use it effectively, I don't see how placing guns around the house is going to mitigate the kind of threat you're concerned with.

My general philosophy of home defense is that I refuse to be taken prisoner in my house. There are simply too many nightmare scenarios that start out that way for me to allow it. That means I will resist with whatever means I have at my disposal until I stop the attack or am neutralized. Even if I get shot driving them off, at least I can summon emergency help--that's better than relying on the mercy of home invaders. Getting killed in the process isn't a wonderful prospect, but it sure beats some of the possible outcomes of being taken prisoner at home with your family. The Petit family massacre and what preceded it comes to mind.

1. I need to know that someone is trying to get in before they actually are in. I don't need minutes of advance notice, but I do need some kind of warning before someone has a gun in my face or multiple intruders are upon me. So doors are closed and locked. The first rule of security. If it has a door, close it. The second rule of security. If it has a lock, lock it. I don't need the locked door to hold them up for a long time--I just need them to make noise getting in.

2. I need to have effective means to stop the attack at my immediate disposal. I'm not going to rely on guns placed around the house so I have to remember where they are in an emergency and then hope I have the time to go get one. I can have one on my person. Then I know exactly where it is at all times and can access it almost instantly.

3. To have a good chance of success, immediate action is necessary, particularly if there are multiple attackers. There must be plans in place for how to respond to likely threats so that time isn't wasted trying to devise a plan on the fly. For each room, you should have a plan for what you are going to do if you are in that room and the attackers come in the front, or the back, or both.

4. I don't make my home a target. When I buy nice things, I cut the boxes up and put them in a garbage bag instead of advertising what I own by throwing away the whole box where everyone can see. I don't show off expensive possessions or wear expensive jewelry, watches, etc. I doubt any of my neighbors know I own guns--if they do, they wouldn't think of me as having lots of guns. There's no reason for anyone to believe my house would be a particularly good house to target for a home invasion.
 
My house was broken into about 15 minutes after I drove off. My wife was inside when she heard a loud bang & found herself at our foyer looking at a guy that had kicked our door open. My wife always has a cell phone on her & she pointed the phone at the guy for a photo (didn't come out too well) & later of the truck his partner was driving when they ran off. Luckily they were not interested in holding anyone hostage or anything like that but if she had not been home our house would have been robbed.
About 6-months later a police officer came around & showed her a lineup of photographs & she identified the guy correctly. The police officer told her that the guy was giving them information on all the robberies they had committed in exchange for leniency & that he remembered our house vividly because he thought the woman he met inside had a gun & tried to shoot him. It wasn't a gun, it was her phone, but nevertheless it had the same effect.
Now we have a German Shepherd (terrific dogs) that is home with her all the time & our new door is much harder to kick down.
 
We live in a nice area that is gated at night. We have motion sensors on the doors and windows and I keep a 357 revolver in a quick access container in the bedroom.

Most evenings you will find me out in the lanai streaming flicks on an outdoor tv. Unarmed.

If confronted with armed intruders, my strategy will be to comply fully, unless we can both reasonably get to the bedroom, lock the door and access the gun. Unlikely. And even then, if the intruders are armed, I wouldn’t want to get into a gun fight.

if we aren’t home, I really don’t care. We carry sufficient insurance and much more importantly, any firearm not under my direct control is inside a quality security container, bolted in place.

Frankly, generally speaking, I am more concerned about unsecured weapons getting into the hands of bad guys than I am about armed intrusions when we are home.
 
BCC1 said:
If confronted with armed intruders, my strategy will be to comply fully
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Any of us may have to do that, but placing one's fate into the hands of someone else is something to be avoided, if at all possible.

There is a reason why most states have laws that provide a presumption that the forcible entry of a domicile, the occupant faces an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm
 
BCC1 said:
We live in a nice area that is gated at night. We have motion sensors on the doors and windows and I keep a 357 revolver in a quick access container in the bedroom.

Most evenings you will find me out in the lanai streaming flicks on an outdoor tv. Unarmed.

If confronted with armed intruders, my strategy will be to comply fully, unless we can both reasonably get to the bedroom, lock the door and access the gun. Unlikely. And even then, if the intruders are armed, I wouldn’t want to get into a gun fight.

if we aren’t home, I really don’t care. We carry sufficient insurance and much more importantly, any firearm not under my direct control is inside a quality security container, bolted in place.

Frankly, generally speaking, I am more concerned about unsecured weapons getting into the hands of bad guys than I am about armed intrusions when we are home.
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Bad strategy. Better to be armed (concealed) and fake compliance until the opportunity presents itself.(and it will, unless multiple armed, then you might as well draw and fire, because they ain't there for a picnic then.)
Trusting the civility of one already breaking the law is a low probability survival strategy.
 
Kleanbore said:
Any of us may have to do that, but placing one's fate into the hands of someone else is something to be avoided, if at all possible.

There is a reason why most states have laws that provide a presumption that the forcible entry of a domicile, the occupant faces an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm
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If 2, 3 or 4 armed men smashed through my front door, even if I had a gun concealed on me, I doubt I could take them all out first. If I tried, I would be placing my life at risk based on the unknown level of skill and desperation of superior numbers of intruders.

My instincts are to avoid escalating a confrontation I am unlikely to win. Especially over property.

If it was a drug addled break-in by unprepared amateurs, sure, I’d stop the threat. Preferably without firing.
 
BCC1 said:
If 2, 3 or 4 armed men smashed through my front door, even if I had a gun concealed on me, I doubt I could take them all out first. If I tried
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A defender attacked in the out of doors can reasonably expect to have to defend against two or more violent assailants. It pays to have the mindset and skillset to do that. A home invasion could involve the same numbers.

BCC1 said:
My instincts are to avoid escalating a confrontation I am unlikely to win
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Defending against persons who have broken into ones domicile would not constitute "escalation".

BCC1 said:
Especially over property.
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There is a reason for the fact that a home invasion is not considered a crime against property.

That effectively dates back to the Code of Hammurabi.

Is your plan to plead for mercy?
 
entropy said:
Trusting the civility of one already breaking the law is a low probability survival strategy.
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I live in a part of town with low levels of crime. Sure, over the years there has been a very few home burglaries (none in our little nightly gated subdivision), and none of those few have resulted in the shooting or death of a resident.

Granted, my experience is purely local, and not evidence of a national trend. Still, I don’t believe a statistically significant percentage of murders in this country occur in nice parts of communities, that are a result of home burglaries.

I have guns, I shoot and train with guns, I compete with guns, I have a gun in my bedroom and I sometimes carry a gun. I still wouldn’t want to get in a gun fight with a group of armed home invaders as a default response.

I do respect your views though and agree they are perfectly legitimate. Hopefully neither of us will ever have to put our plans to the test.
 
Kleanbore said:
A defender attacked in the out of doors can reasonably expect to have to defend against two or more violent assailants. It pays to have the mindset and skillset to do that. A home invasion could involve the same numbers.

Defending against persons who have broken into ones domicile would not constitute "escalation".

There is a reason for the fact that a home invasion is not considered a crime against property.

That effectively dates back to the Code of Hammurabi.

Is your plan to plead for mercy?
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I know how to draw and engage targets at varying distances very quickly and accurately enough. I’m not saying I’m anything special, because I’m not, but repetition is our friend. And I’m in shape.

If you have the reflexes, access to a weapon and speed of movement to be certain of success engaging multiple armed thieves entering your home, good for you. Seriously.

And to answer your question, nope, I’ve never pleaded for mercy, nor thought about it. I’m 6’3”/200 pounds, and maybe that’s why I’ve never had anyone ask me to, either.

Anyway, this is a gun forum and we are gun enthusiasts, so I understand my perspective is out of the norm.
 
BCC1 said:
I have a gun in my bedroom and I sometimes carry a gun.
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In those places and moments, you will at least have the equipment,

BCC1 said:
I still wouldn’t want to get in a gun fight with a group of armed home invaders as a default response.
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No one would, but once they are in, that is the response.

BCC1 said:
I’m 6’3”/200 pounds,
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How might mass and stature deter armed invaders?
 
I was once awakened by my dog in the middle of the night & I told her to quiet down. The next morning I found my car had been broken into & my stereo was missing. I learned a valuable lesson & from that day on whenever my dog barks you'll find me up, armed & wandering around the house ready for the worst. So far just false alarms or animals searching for food in my yard but if it ever turns out to be a bad guy I will not be caught with my pants down.
 
At night after dinner and front door unlocked.... thinking a wall (that apparently can be easily hopped) offers security.... no quick access firearm.

One, two, two three strikes and your out.

Your relative is very, very lucky his family was not seriously harmed and/or violated.

I would never assume that the home intruder is a "coward" and depend upon their good will for my family's security.

We lock our doors day and night....

Personally, I would not have an unsecured firearm. It's either on my person or secure. I recommend Gun Vault. I have two and they have proven to be very fast and dependable. Change the batteries once a year, same as smoke detectors and you're good to go. One is in plain site (though low, by the dog's bowl) hard mounted to a post. No guest has ever asked me what it it.... they seem to assume it's some kind of pet food dispenser.

Dogs aren't for everyone and not everyone is a good dog owner. We just lost our 12 year old Golden to cancer. He was very quiet with the most ridiculously pathetic wale of a bark. He never..... never... never... barked without cause. There was always a reason. If a car came down our drive that he was not familiar with, he barked. He never barked at cars he knew. Couldn't have asked for a better more faithful and loyal friend.
 
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