45 acp

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LiveLife said:
Not so fast.

Using the barrel for the "plunk test" will determine the "max OAL" that will work for the barrel but that length may not reliably feed from the magazine. (There's another reloading variable of resized case length as shorter case will allow more bullet nose to stick above the case mouth but I won't go into that in this post)

Before you move onto powder work up, you need to determine the "working OAL" that reliably feed from the magazine and chamber in the barrel as slide cycles. Often the working OAL could be the same length as max OAL but sometimes the working OAL is shorter.

And once you determine the working OAL, then you can move on to the powder work up.
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Just my .02 but I do not think the OP is moving to fast. He has selected the powder he is going to use and the bullet he is going to use. He has determined the COL for his barrel and the bullet he is going to be using. The COL of 1.25 is pretty common using a 230gr fmj bullet so he should not have any issues feeding in his magazine He has a Hornady Reloading Manual and has gotten a lot of advise from the forum members.

The next logical step is to determine the powder charge he is going to start out with which he has already done. He has stated he is going to load up some small groups of each powder charge he is going to use and go to the range and see how they work.

If they work he is good to go just need to determine which powder charge he wants to go with for a range/plinking load. If he has problems he can come back to the forum for more advise.

I know some folks do not think much of Lee Dies but I have been using the Lee 4 die set for several years for the pistol calibers I load and they have worked 100% for me. I do use the factory crimp die and have never had an issue with a round feeding, firing or ejecting. Yes the factory crimp die with the resizing insert makes sure the cartridge is within specs when it is crimped and I load either plated bullets or FMJ and never had a problem with the die resizing the bullet. Don't load lead bullets so I can't say anything about them.
 
LiveLife said:
So what did recreational reloaders and match shooters do before Lee produced FCD? When I loaded USPSA match rounds (9mm/40S&W/45ACP) for aftermarket barrels with tighter chambers, my reloading mentor told me to keep the FCD in the die box and learn to adjust dies to make them work even in tighter barrels.
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Yes! Yes! Yes!
 
sifer1 said:
i checked the oal started at 1.75 and worked my way back to 1.25 oal which spins in the barrel and when i put the gun back together, and loaded from the mag, the chamber seemed to close all the way with no issue. i then made 3 rounds each of titegroup powder from the starting load of 4.4 grains to 4.5 grns, 4.6 grn 4.7 grains. all at the same oal. will try them today. i hope this works very frusterated
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First of all, 4.4g to 4.7g in 0.1g increments is way too narrow of increments. Secondly, 3 rounds each is way too small a sample. When I do load development for handguns, I do increments of 0.3g between low and high staying inside the limits. I load 10 rounds each. Often, I don't even bother loading the minimum load because with modern lawyered up data, most loads are pretty anemic. Alliant tends to only publish max loads, so I go a couple tenths below max, then 0.5g below max. Chances are one of the two sets of loads is better than the other or either one works fine.

Titegroup sometimes seems to deliver lower apparent pressures than published. That means even with a published maximum load, you might find a partially sooty or scorched case. That means the flame is getting in between the case and chamber before the case expands to seal the gases off. That's OK because if the soot/scorch mark doesn't travel the entire length of the case, it is sealing off the gases from blowing back into your face. A fully scorched/sooty case means it didn't seal the chamber and you could have gases blowing back into your face along with sparks from flaming powder flakes flying back to you.

Since you seem to be saying your gun isn't cycling properly with the reloads, you need to be more specific. Are the cases ejecting completely? Are you getting stovepipes with the empties? Are subsequent cartridges not going fully into battery? Each of these are symptoms of different problems in your reloads.

If you are very frustrated with your first reloads, get used to it. Load development takes patience and a methodical approach.
 
one thing most newbs do is start at the very lowest powder amount in a book. While in theory this is good for safety, low end loads almost always suck.I"ve learned to start mid-load,and think it's perfectly safe to do so.
the chamber gauge is 'ok' for checking rounds but your barrel is the final go-no go decider.
 
SASS#23149 said:
rsrocket1 said:
Often, I don't even bother loading the minimum load because with modern lawyered up data, most loads are pretty anemic.
Click to expand...
one thing most newbs do is start at the very lowest powder amount in a book. While in theory this is good for safety, low end loads almost always suck.I"ve learned to start mid-load
Click to expand...
If I started my powder work up at mid-range load data, I would have never found my favorite light target load for 45ACP, 200 gr LSWC with 4.0 gr of Red Dot/Promo which is below published load data using longer OAL of 1.245" (Or light 40S&W target load mentioned below).
And if you ask bullseye match shooters, they not only start at published start charges, they will "work down" instead of working up to identify accurate light loads that may even require lighter recoil springs.

Here's a Shooting Time article on developing accurate light target loads for bullseye match and many of the loads are below published start charges. And I am sure bullseye match shooters know a thing or two about accuracy - https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/loads-for-the-bullseye-shooter/99418#:~:text=from your 1911.-,Brad says the most important part of a Bullseye load,a relatively fast-burning powder.


For USPSA, I switched from 45ACP/9mm to 40S&W to better meet major and minor power factors with one caliber and this Guns & Ammo Handguns article lists many 40S&W minor power factor loads that are quite a bit below published start charges - https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/ammunition_40lite_091806/138689

"Accuracy: With my three test pistols, every one of the loads listed below provided more than adequate accuracy for action-pistol shooting, training and plinking ... shooting offhand I was able to keep all rounds fired inside of the A-zone of an IPSC target at 25 yards."
​
With 180 gr TCFP bullet, 4.0 gr - 4.3 gr of W231/HP-38 will produce lighter than/9mm-like recoil load that is great for training and introducing shooters to 40S&W from 9mm.

So when conducting load development and powder work up, especially with W231/HP-38 and faster burning powders, if you see reliable slide cycling and spent case extraction/ejection at start charge along with display of accuracy, consider doing a "work down" to identify light recoiling yet accurate target loads.
 
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rsrocket1 said:
First of all, 4.4g to 4.7g in 0.1g increments is way too narrow of increments. Secondly, 3 rounds each is way too small a sample. When I do load development for handguns, I do increments of 0.3g between low and high staying inside the limits.
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Maybe not optimum, but it will tell him what he needs to know to take the next step. I'm looking forward to his range report.
 
so i've been told that because i havent shot 1000 rounds through the gun yet its not broken in. so i shouldnt bother with reloading any right now
 
sifer1 said:
so i've been told that because i havent shot 1000 rounds through the gun yet its not broken in. so i shouldnt bother with reloading any right now
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Really?

I usually shoot 300-400+ rounds through any new gun to initially "break in" ... I just make sure those "reloaded" rounds are made with jacketed/plated bullets to smooth the rifling surface before shooting lead/coated lead bullets.

For defensive pistols, I don't consider them "broken in" until they have several thousand rounds through and proven reliable. And yes, I use reloads for that "break in" too.
 
rsrocket1 said:
First of all, 4.4g to 4.7g in 0.1g increments is way too narrow of increments
Click to expand...

With the data giving a charge range of 4.4gr - 4.8gr, 0.1gr increments is the way to go IMO.

I would still make more than 3 of each though. I usually make 10 of each when trying out a new load.

chris
 
sifer1 said:
so i've been told that because i havent shot 1000 rounds through the gun yet its not broken in. so i shouldnt bother with reloading any right now
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Not sure who told you that but that person was not very knowledgeable about guns. Most modern brand name guns should and most do run ok right out of the box. Depending on what you want to do with your gun, use it for self defense or just for plinking/range toy will kinda determine how many rounds to run through your gun to feel comfortable with it.

Their is no reason not to run reloads through your gun if you have run some factory rounds through your gun and it functions ok then I would not have any problem running reloads through it. Most of my guns that I shoot regularly have never seen factory ammo in them and reloads have not given me any problems.
 
sifer1 said:
so i've been told that because i havent shot 1000 rounds through the gun yet its not broken in. so i shouldnt bother with reloading any right now
Click to expand...

Reload away... if you've shot a few hundred to determine good function, then why not reload to your heart's content? My .45s see only reloads and if I find a new powder that I want to try, I don't have any hesitation to work up loads.
 
sifer1 said:
so i've been told that because i havent shot 1000 rounds through the gun yet its not broken in. so i shouldnt bother with reloading any right now
Click to expand...

I have a couple 1911's that have never had a factory round through them.

But, my reloads reasonably duplicate factory 230 RN ammunition.
 
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I have a coupe 1911's that have never had a factory round through them.

But, my reloads reasonably duplicate factory 230 RN ammunition.
Click to expand...

I load 230gr RN plated and FMJ bullets with titegroup that feel very factory like. I shoot them in a Kimber TLE 2. This pistol might have 250 factory rounds through it. I also have new guns that were purchased after I started reloading that have never seen factory ammo.

I think there has been a lot of solid advice offered in this post. Stay safe.
 
I did all the loads with 1.25 oal from the plunk test the gun cycled fine. And chambered the shell. But when it came to firing all the different load levels they would fire like there was very little recoil, and the gun would not cycle to the next round, unless I slide the action myself. Then tried factory rounds and the gun cycled fine
 
sifer1 said:
1.25 oal from the plunk test the gun cycled fine. And chambered the shell.
Click to expand...
That's good. It means 1.250" is a good "working OAL".

sifer1 said:
i load 3 rounds each for tightgroup powder and have loaded 4.4grains, 4.5 grains, 4.6 grains, and 4.7grains. as a test run.
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sifer1 said:
But when it came to firing all the different load levels they would fire like there was very little recoil, and the gun would not cycle to the next round, unless I slide the action myself. Then tried factory rounds and the gun cycled fine
Click to expand...
That means your load requires higher powder charge to overcome the recoil spring force to push the slide back far enough to strip and feed the next round from the magazine.

And was your scale verified with check weights? Perhaps you are using lighter powder charge than what you think you are using?

Let's review the load data you are referencing.
  • 45ACP 230 gr Lead RN Titegroup COL 1.200" Start 4.0 gr (751 fps) - Max 4.8 gr (855 fps)
  • 45ACP 230 gr FMJ FP Titegroup COL 1.200" Start 4.4 gr (744 fps) - Max 4.8 gr (818 fps)
Both Lead RN and FMJ FP load data used shorter 1.200" OAL with deeper bullet seating depth than your FMJ RN at longer 1.250" OAL. Using longer OAL will reduce pressure and you need to compensate powder charge when using longer than published OAL (And also reduce powder charge when using shorter than published OAL).

Depending on the amount of OAL difference, I will adjust my powder charges by .2 - .3 gr so if 4.7 gr did not reliably cycle the slide, you can try 4.9 gr. (BTW, keep in mind that if your scale is off by say .2 gr, your max test powder charge could have been 4.5 gr using longer OAL).

But utilizing your scale's unknown weighing, I would load 4.9, 5.0 and 5.1 gr for your next range trip and see which powder charge reliably cycles your slide.
 
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sifer1 said:
I did all the loads with 1.25 oal from the plunk test the gun cycled fine. And chambered the shell. But when it came to firing all the different load levels they would fire like there was very little recoil, and the gun would not cycle to the next round, unless I slide the action myself. Then tried factory rounds and the gun cycled fine
Click to expand...
make sure you have a firm consistent grip on the gun. keep at it.

luck,

murf
 
LiveLife said:
I figured this wasn't a factor as factory ammo cycled the gun.
​
I think OP just needs to increase the powder charge a bit.
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1) every shooter needs to do "firm and consistent grip".

2) i was thinking about the psychological aspect of shooting "powerful" factory ammo as opposed to "weak" handloads. when peoples perceptions change, physical reactions change (especially when recoil related).

might as well get the op started early on recoil management!

murf
 
murf said:
make sure you have a firm consistent grip on the gun.

might as well get the op started early on recoil management!
Click to expand...
One of things I do when conducting point shooting training/retirement PIF sharing with people is to demonstrate that "death grip" is not required to operate a pistol and properly manage POA/POI by using only two fingers (Thumb and third finger but utilizing 45 degree cant to lock the wrist like 10/2 O'clock grip on steering wheel) to shoot various fullsize to compact pistols in 9mm/40S&W/45ACP and then have students return demonstrate.

They are often shocked when they can shoot all the pistols with just thumb and third finger and control shooting multiple shots at multiple targets, especially repeating with weak hand - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/flinching-drills.864546/page-2#post-11416785

"Range day:
  • At the start of range session with targets at 5 yards, I demonstrate 2 finger grip shooting with various 9/40/45 pistols while shattering many Hollywood movie gun myths as ice breaker"
Yes, I agree that when conducting load development with marginal powder charge that approaches the threshold of cycling the slide, a firm grip will help.

But we are not helping OP develop "marginal" load that barely cycles the slide rather "reliable" load that will consistently cycle the slide.
 
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In my opinion only; I think telling a new reloader to ignore starting loads and just go somewhere in the middle is a disservice to the new guy. I also think it encourages reckless, sloppy reloading and guessing at powder charges. Why not just toss the manual and ask for loads on a forum?

I tell any body that will listen, especially newer reloaders my Rule #1; Pay no attention to any reloading data you see in a forum, see on any "pet loads" website, hear from any range rat, good intended friend, gun counter clerk, or gun shop guru. Start out with data from a published reloading manual an begin at the starting load level. Some data from powder manufacturer's web sites is OK, but I will check those against my manuals. Too cautious, OCD? Maybe for some but in 40+ years of reloading I have had one squib (1970) and no, none, nada, zip, zero Kabooms. And with my semi-auto pistols I have never had a failure to cycle with starting load data, and many very accurate loads from starting load data. If you have some experience reloading and you want to "go your own way" as far as load data, use our own "formula" for determining powder charges, fine, but don't suggest that to a new reloader...
 
Walkalong said:
I seat 230 Gr RN to fall between 1.260 to 1.265 OAL. The taper "crimp” should just remove the bell/flare, no more. I don't use Titegroup, but many do and can likely help you there. Any brand of standard large pistol primer will do.
View attachment 940187

Welcome to THR
Click to expand...
Ok got the measurements as you have them on the case and crimp. And the oal of rhe bullet is now 1.254 to spin free of the barrel and fall out
 
Walkalong said:
I seat 230 Gr RN to fall between 1.260 to 1.265 OAL. The taper "crimp” should just remove the bell/flare, no more. I don't use Titegroup, but many do and can likely help you there. Any brand of standard large pistol primer will do.
View attachment 940187

Welcome to THR
Click to expand...
Walkalong said:
I seat 230 Gr RN to fall between 1.260 to 1.265 OAL. The taper "crimp” should just remove the bell/flare, no more. I don't use Titegroup, but many do and can likely help you there. Any brand of standard large pistol primer will do.
View attachment 940187

Welcome to THR
Click to expand...
I've got it to fall at 1.262 be free to spin and the crimp as you have it on the picture
 
rsrocket1 said:
First of all, 4.4g to 4.7g in 0.1g increments is way too narrow of increments. Secondly, 3 rounds each is way too small a sample. When I do load development for handguns, I do increments of 0.3g between low and high staying inside the limits. I load 10 rounds each. Often, I don't even bother loading the minimum load because with modern lawyered up data, most loads are pretty anemic. Alliant tends to only publish max loads, so I go a couple tenths below max, then 0.5g below max. Chances are one of the two sets of loads is better than the other or either one works fine.

Titegroup sometimes seems to deliver lower apparent pressures than published. That means even with a published maximum load, you might find a partially sooty or scorched case. That means the flame is getting in between the case and chamber before the case expands to seal the gases off. That's OK because if the soot/scorch mark doesn't travel the entire length of the case, it is sealing off the gases from blowing back into your face. A fully scorched/sooty case means it didn't seal the chamber and you could have gases blowing back into your face along with sparks from flaming powder flakes flying back to you.

Since you seem to be saying your gun isn't cycling properly with the reloads, you need to be more specific. Are the cases ejecting completely? Are you getting stovepipes with the empties? Are subsequent cartridges not going fully into battery? Each of these are symptoms of different problems in your reloads.

If you are very frustrated with your first reloads, get used to it. Load development takes patience and a methodical approach.
Click to expand...
The gun is not cycling to next load. I've had sparks coming back at me. The gun fires the round but doesn't seem to be able to slide theaction on its own
 
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