ATF moving the goalposts?

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Correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember that bump stocks were approved by the ATF and letters were provided to the buyer. Well, we all know how that went.

The ATF didn’t to that the Trump administration had Matthew Whitaker announce that the DOJ amended the regulations, putting them in with machineguns.

You might be thinking of the Akins accelerator or the AW-Sim devices the BATFE changed their minds on.
 
This is severely off topic, but while that's a popular assessment, it isn't really so. Building Code changes move very slowly (complicated by needing municipal concurrence) but with decided certainty.
As a member of the ICC (Internation Code Council) I can assure you these things are not taken lightly, nor for personal gain, and are very much "written in blood."
Building codes aren't generally written in law. They are regulations and that was what I was driving at. Things like the National Electrical Code don't change rapidly but they do change and its a private trade association (NFPA) that makes said changes. However, almost every municipality adheres to them when doing inspections and I know personally that they are not taken lightly.
 
From my experience, they're at least 50% legal racketeering. An apt comparison indeed.
Most building codes are pretty well based in either actual safety and engineering or in preventing lawsuits later on. I can't remember the last time we had an earthquake strong enough to move a 400lbs water heater here in Las Vegas, but we still have to have earthquake straps on them. And while it might just be to squeeze an extra $30 out of someone, it would cost a whole lot more if the thing fell off its pedestal.
 
Public opinion in America changes like the wind direction. Often. While every one swore it was Obama that was going to restrict gun ownership, turns out the Trump administration did more of that than #44. Ammo/reloading supplies are scarce to none one day because of public sentiment, and on sale everywhere the next because of over stocked shelves. Add to changing public sentiment on guns, the changes in technology and overall appeal to the new technology/platforms. I remember when a deer hunter brought a black rifle into camp, he was the laughing stock of the season. Nowadays, it's common and no one says a word. Folks need to remember, gun owners are still a minority in the U.S. Fortunately so are the strong opponents to gun ownership. While those opinions don't flux much, the majority of those without guns change their opinions all the time and have a lot of influence on the changes in laws and regs. one needs to realize, just cause someone does not own a gun, does not make them our enemy. We still have our guns basically because those folks neutral to gun ownership still allow it. Many of those neutrals live in a household that has guns. Why is this important? Because the ATF considers public opinion before changing or creating a new reg.

By law, federal agencies such as ATF must consult the public when creating, modifying, or deleting rules in the Code of Federal Regulations. This is an annual publication that lists the official and complete text of federal agency regulations. Once ATF decides that a regulation needs to be added, changed, or deleted, it typically publishes a proposed rule in the Federal Register to ask the public for comments. After ATF considers public feedback and makes changes where appropriate, we then publish a final rule in the Federal Register with a specific date for when the rule will become effective and enforceable. When ATF issues a final rule for comment, we must describe and respond to the public comments we received.
 
The laws (pertaining to anything and especially firearms) should be written so clear that I can walk right up to the very edge and stop and have no doubt ...

The Second amendment is VERY clear. All interpretations since then of the 2nd have been less clear. And they are just that, interpretations that bow to all kinds of pressure. I think people with an understanding of how “Law” and politics intercede agree; we are in the minority my friends.
 
This whole thing seems like it could be resolved with a simple change to the law that states that autoloading pistols can't have any sort of forward gripping surface or barrel shroud. Any autoloader that has an accessory rail longer than 3" or so is classed as an SBR. Attaching a vertical foregrip remains a no-no on a pistol.
Or, alternatively, the ATF could be abolished and legislators could stop violating their oath of office.
 
The brace in question is split. Though it is hard to tell for me from the pictures if the opening is actually big enough to fit one's arm though it.

View attachment 947302
If your arm can fit through that. You need to go to the gym and eat more food.
I don't agree with the ATF being there. Let alone what they do. But that is clearly trying to skate a stock by calling it a brace.
 
But the ATF regulations and interpretations are not written clearly in common language or legal language. Even most of the Federal gun laws are written poorly. There is so much gray area in firearms laws and the way the ATF interprets them to allow one to drive a truck through the grey area in many cases. Pistol braces, bump stocks, binary triggers, Tac-13/Shockwaves, Artillery and Navy Lugers, shoe laces, etc are all products of these poorly written laws.

This. Like seriously. So everyone is walking around with a machine gun component on their shoe. ATF is an example of runaway government.

I will say that I pride myself on not buying firearms and systems that could come under scrutiny. No need. Plenty of “black and white” firearms out there for me.
 
"Shall not be infringed"

...at least that's what my heart says. I find these topics difficult, as it is a dilemma in a philosophical sense.

On one hand, I want to be law abiding.

On the other hand, the laws are dumb and shouldn't exist.

On one foot, the laws are better than anywhere else in the world for the most part.

On the other foot, someone is always trying to add more laws and more regulations.

I just want my SBR silenced machine gun to be delivered by mail, flown by a bald eagle.
 
I will say that I pride myself on not buying firearms and systems that could come under scrutiny. No need. Plenty of “black and white” firearms out there for me.
Ah. Yes. Flintlocks-R-Us

"Shall not be infringed"

...at least that's what my heart says. I find these...
...to be delivered by mail, flown by a bald eagle.

Well as I said. There is ALWAYS Flintlocks-R-Us

And THEN they will come for the flintlocks...picks, hoes, shovels...baseball bats...dinner forkie forkie, knifey knifey...plastic picnic pack (evil BLACK! serrated knife!) handout at the drive thru with yer chicken dinner....drive thru with an SUV!?? GasP! plastic straws, big gulp pepsi....

FOLKS, they want it ALL including rimfire. Don't give an inch!!
 
And 95% of perps charged with the death penalty are guilty-as-sin. Yet, we go through super due process, ''just in case'' ONE PERP is spared. Usually under some obscure tinny statute.

So IF I were to use such an item, and, IF the (arbitrary) # of 95% was actually correct, that being the users are in fact shouldering their braces (not hurting anything but paper targets BTW); and IF I were not, I deserve the benefit of not the doubt, but the benefit of that as a FACT.
 
95% plus is placing the brace to your shoulder and fire it like a rifle and all intents and purpose it is a short barreled rifle period.
How the end user uses a device should have zero bearing on how the device is classified. The fact that I buy a large torque wrench and use it as a hammer does not make that torque wrench a hammer no matter how many nails I drive with it.
 
Those folks that can afford a AR-type pistol and an arm brace, with the intention of using it as a stock, could certainly afford the $200 for the SBR tax stamp, and avoid any changes the ATF might make.I think the thrill is the idea they are "getting" away with something.
 
Those folks that can afford a AR-type pistol and an arm brace, with the intention of using it as a stock, could certainly afford the $200 for the SBR tax stamp, and avoid any changes the ATF might make.I think the thrill is the idea they are "getting" away with something.

A pistol brace AR crosses state lines with significantly less fuss than a SBR.
 
How the end user uses a device should have zero bearing on how the device is classified. The fact that I buy a large torque wrench and use it as a hammer does not make that torque wrench a hammer no matter how many nails I drive with it.
yes but a hammer or a torque wrench serve other purposes than to be a weapon. An AR15 is always a weapon, its only function is to propel bullets at lethal velocities.
The laws say that you have to register an SBR.
This is the ATF calling out the manufacturer for sticking a philips head bit on a hammer and calling it a screwdriver.
 
yes but a hammer or a torque wrench serve other purposes than to be a weapon. An AR15 is always a weapon, its only function is to propel bullets at lethal velocities.
The laws say that you have to register an SBR.
This is the ATF calling out the manufacturer for sticking a philips head bit on a hammer and calling it a screwdriver.

What does the status of being a weapon have to do with a problem stemming from poorly written laws, enforced inconsistently? Whether it's a firearm or a child toy, the laws still need to be clearly written (by legislators not alphabet agencies) and enforce consistently. Currently laws regulating pistol braces are not clearly written or consistently enforced. The ATF has said previously a pistol brace was legal according to current law, and now they are trying to say its not legal, according to the same laws (no new laws have been passed by legislation) and to make things worst they refuse to clearly define what is and is not legal. They have consciously chosen to create and leave a grey area in their interpretation and enforcement of the law and that is BS.
 
IMHO the ATF should just let people take the thingy they are calling a stock off of the gun and call it good.
 
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