How vital is it to get defense ammo?

Buy the self defense-specific ammo for you EDC gun. You don't have to buy the most expensive. In fact, Paul Harrell has a whole video out there about hyper ammo vs the regular green and white box hollow points (He doesn't care for the most expensive ammo), but don't carry fmj as your self defense ammo if you can avoid it.

What you get is better terminal performance and less "over penetration." (Again, check out some of Harrell's videos; he has shot 380 fmj through multiple layers of pork chops and rib bones and the bullets just kept on going.) Lucky Gunner has done a lot of research on projectiles performance using ballistic jell-o, if that's your preferred medium.

bigger expansion and less penetration, both important for self defense use

think of it this way, besides shooting your defense rounds just enough to make sure they cycle through your edc no problem, you buy a box once every 5 years once you load a couple magazines for carry. Forget the price per bullet, get some Barnes TAC-XPD or Federal HST

The Exile said:

I've never personally run dry wall tests or any crazy psudeo-CIA spec ops training to see how much fmj might penetrate but I assume it's not just gonna rip through the bad guy then tear through a crowd of bystandards if some crazy guy decides to shoot up a store while I'm walking in from the parking lot or something.

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Actually, fmj will do just that. Again, check out some of Harrell's work on youtube. He has done a lot of drywall tests as well. (Drywall tends to clog up a hollow point and prevent it from expanding, turning it int something more like a fmj.) From a legal liability standpoint, I would be concerned about discharging fmj ammo in a crowded room in self defense. Not only is it going to do little damage to your intended target (i.e punch a small hole), but it's going to keep going and hit anything or anyone else in the wrong place at the right time. You could find yourself totally legally justified in the shooting, and still face a serious civil suit over unintended damages. (Which is always a risk you take, but a good quality, self defense designed, hollow point will mitigate that risk.

For a point of reference, my preferred is Barnes Tac X PD copper solid, but I base that on the Barnes copper solid hunting bullet performance I have personally witnessed in real life hunting.
ETA: I do have to disclose, however, that I don't edc for self defense on a regular basis. My applications are strictly in my home self defense, but I believe the rationales are the same.

mlankton said:

think of it this way, besides shooting your defense rounds just enough to make sure they cycle through your edc no problem, you buy a box once every 5 years once you load a couple magazines for carry. Forget the price per bullet, get some Barnes TAC-XPD or Federal HST

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I totally agree. When you add up all the costs of responsibly carrying a gun and living an armed lifestyle-regular training from a professional trainer, high quality, reliable firearm, holsters, spare mags, CARRY INSURANCE!!-then $25 for a box of premium ammo is chump change.

Although, I think the standard is to fire your carry ammo 200 rounds with zero malfunctions through your gun before staking your life on it.

Basically, good HP ammo is designed to penetrate and expand in a limited manner, with the ideal being enough penetration to reach the vital organs and just to the point of exit. The bullet will have expended all energy within the bad guy (or for hunting ammo deer, hog, etc.). Even if it exits, the ideal is for the bullet to drop to the ground shortly afterwards so as not to be a hazard to someone beyond. (An ideal-world scenario)

Should you shoot some maniac shooting up a Wal mart, as was said above you're potentially civilly and criminally liable for the results of every shot fired even if you do stop the attacker. Since a FMJ is not designed to expand at all, and in smaller higher-velocity numbers it does have a tendency to zip through tissues, so even if you ten-ring the crook if your shot goes through the intended target and exits with enough steam it certainly can kill someone beyond.

Some people may disagree, and they're OK in doing so; but IMHO unless your chosen EDC/HD handgun is only reliable with FMJ there really is no reason to use it.

Stay safe.

D.B. Cooper said:

From a legal liability standpoint, I would be concerned about discharging fmj ammo in a crowded room in self defense. Not only is it going to do little damage to your intended target (i.e punch a small hole), but it's going to keep going and hit anything or anyone else in the wrong place at the right time. You could find yourself totally legally justified in the shooting, and still face a serious civil suit over unintended damages. (Which is always a risk you take, but a good quality, self defense designed, hollow point will mitigate that risk.

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Riomouse911 said:

Should you shoot some maniac shooting up a Wal mart, as was said above you're potentially civilly and criminally liable for the results of every shot fired even if you do stop the attacker. Since a FMJ is not designed to expand at all, and in smaller higher-velocity numbers it does have a tendency to zip through tissues, so even if you ten-ring the crook if your shot goes through the intended target and exits with enough steam it certainly can kill someone beyond.

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Very wise words of wisdom here, worth paying close attention to. It's that civil liability that's really going to bite you, because bite it's going to do whether you're in the clear or not. And if you haven't covered that base, and if you don't have expert defense, you're in deep doo doo. (See thread somewhere around here about carry insurance).

Every law enforcement officer in the country carries this type of ammunition, and not FMJ.

There is a reason for that.

D.B. Cooper said:

Again, check out some of Harrell's videos; he has shot 380 fmj through multiple layers of pork chops and rib bones and the bullets just kept on going.

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Indeed, a friend I shoot Trap with is an ME tech, and she hates when stiffs come in with .380 bullets in them, she has to play hide and seek with them.

The Exile said:

I thought the line was train with what you carry?

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obviously said by someone who shoots a lot less or has a lot more money than me

The Exile said:

if some crazy guy decides to shoot up a store while I'm walking in from the parking lot or something.

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If some crazy guy decides to shoot up a store while you're walking in from the parking lot you need to turn around and get the HELL out of Dodge.

This list was compiled by Dr. Gary Roberts. He is THE leading expert in terminal ballistics and round performance


Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P JHP (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr +P PT
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Speer G2 147 gr PT
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Speer Gold Dot 165 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (RA40B/Q4355/S40SWPDB1)

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Hornady Critical Duty 220 gr +P JHP
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)


Any thing on it will perform adequately. Pick one and roll.

Here's a link to the discussion


https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo

Of course WE are all good shots and there is no need to worry about the rounds fired that do not connect with the active shooter. Those rounds will pass harmlessly through the crowd. It is only rounds that “over penetrate” that are worrisome.

Kevin

How "vital" is it? How "vital" is surviving a gunfight? It is indisputable that HP ammo is more effective than mil type FMJ ammo against adversaries. Common sense dictates that you would want every reasonable "edge" in your favor in a gunfight -assuming your gun functions reliably with HP ammo (which it will) and assuming that HP ammunition is legal in your location. The extra $ you spend saving your life is a small investment. In fact, the $ you will be spending on other things post-gunfight will dwarf the few dollars spent on the HP ammo you used.

In my humble opinion no, the super expensive stuff isn't necessary at a certain power level, which your 9mm meets.

Back when Walmart sold pistol ammo they had 100 round value packs of Remington 115 grain jhp.

In a variety of tests from barrels as small as the db micro 9s these routinely went over 12 inches and expanded to over. 60.

It was around 30 dollars for 100 of these.

The Exile said:

I thought the line was train with what you carry?

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Probably more accurate to say train with something that closely matches the performance of what you carry.

Winchester actually has a line of ammunition what are the training ammunition and the defensive ammunition have been formulated to perform very similarly

Trunk Monkey said:

Probably more accurate to say train with something that closely matches the performance of what you carry.

Winchester actually has a line of ammunition what are the training ammunition and the defensive ammunition have been formulated to perform very similarly

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Really, this.

As long as you select an option for training/carry that are the same weight and relative recoil impulse (standard vs +P) there isn't gonna be much difference between the two.

Personally I load cheap FMJ to the same impact and FPS as my carry ammo so they shoot the same, but as long as I don't carry a 147 and train with a 115 or something, it really feels the same.

So it's about making sure your CCW cycles your defensive ammo perfectly and train with the cheaper stuff.

When I was responsible for a .380 setup for defense, it was loaded with the hottest commercially available FMJ I could find.

My 9mm and 45ACP pistols are loaded with XTP HPs.

Both of these decisions were made on the basis of Lucky Gunner's pistol ammo testing. Go read it.

And obviously, WHERE you make a hole is far more important than how big it is.

I definitely think you should get a hollow point bullet, but I'm equally sure that it doesn't have to be one of the expensive "defense" or "hyper" rounds that come 20 to a box and cost more than a 50 round box of Winchester or Remington ammo.

For 9mm, .357, .40 S&W and the like, the regular hollow points work fine.
If you get into lower velocity stuff like .38 Spcl or .380, maybe I'd step up to a premium expensive bullet.

All ammo can kill if you hit the right place.(even a blank can kill) Now to control collateral damage you may want to have at least a hollow point.
A buddy of mine that was new to guns bought his first .380 pistol & couldn't find any ammo for it. I showed him some flat point 95gr rounds that will work just about as good as HP, he bought as much as he could.

JCooperfan1911 said:

Every law enforcement officer in the country carries this type of ammunition, and not FMJ.

There is a reason for that.

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That was not always the case. Back in the dark ages all we had was FMJ. Then Speer came out with the Flying Ashtray, a 200 grain Hollow point with a cavity almost big enough to put a 38 SWC nose into. Problem was it took some work to get a stock 1911 of the day to feed them reliably.

Assuming your shots are all well placed enough to effectively stop the attack, regardless of bullet type;

Consider this; you want those projectiles to stop within your target. The probability that an FMJ going to punch through to hit something else after the fact is very real. JHPs aren’t perfect, but would help to offset that risk.

Back in the day, the Glazer "Safety Slug" wore out pages and page of gun mag ink.
In the 80s, that stuff was $2.50-3.00 per round. ($3 in 1985 is $7.50± in 2020)
Regular ammo was less than a dime per round; "plain HP" were under a quarter each.

But, there were plenty of people willing to buy the hype as a trade for getting skilled with their handgun.
And, functionally, the stuff was too expensive to shoot. $16-18 a pack of six was 2, maybe 3 boxes of ball ammo. And six rounds is barely enough group to know, at the surety level SD requires, what the POI was relative to the POA.

The reality of the stuff, was, yes, you would get no through-and-through, but "FBI" penetration was only about 2 inches, too.

There are all kinds of expensive "wonder rounds" out today, too. With present scarcities, they might be the last rounds on the shelf, too. Which is probably for a reason.

Train with what you carry is a very valid thing. That need not be exclusive, though. You want to shoot enough of your carry ammo to know if it has a specific POA (mine does, about 1" right and 1" up). So, maybe you empty the carry mag once every 3-4 months, just to re-learn what the POI is; then shoot more economical ammo.

I am reporting, but not proposing this idea-

There are some (fewer now, but more common a decade or so ago) with extensive combat experience who used to prefer hardball based on the fact that it WOULD exit the suspect. It was the 'two holes drain faster than one' theory.

I know in knife work, the faster you let the blood out, the faster you get incapacitation.

Larry

Lucky Gunner Test is a good reference:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
A 124 gr. 9mm HP that did not expand penetrated 26'' recovered bullets diameter .35
124 gr. HST penetrated 18'' and expanded .61-.66
For self defense against a human penetration past 18'' is considered overpenetrative / undesirable, FMJ would penetrate at least 26''
Also, increasing bullet diameter from .35 up to .60-.66 is advantageous for potentially stopping a threat ASAP