How vital is it to get defense ammo?

[Garandimal]

This one has been around before.

I have absolutely no idea about his "classes", but twelve shots in eight seconds is nowhere near representative of realistic defensive shooting....

And then there's this:

The first vid has his qualifications, and the second vid has his empirical testing and conclusions.

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...yet both are ignored and summarily dismissed, in favor of a patronizing and condescending attitude and stop-watch academic "Kool-Aid."

Maybe you could watch them.


As for this?

- G36/ .45 ACP/ 230 gr. ball -
(10 yards/ 5 rounds/ 5 sec. from low ready/ Strong hand only)

​

"5 rounds/ 5 sec. from low ready," for me, is w/in five seconds, including the draw. Split times being b/t 0.5 and 0.75 seconds.

For all you know, this can also be accomplished while moving.

As for the hits?

The first one, was the center mass hit - which would have entered the sternum, taking out the top of the liver a/o the bottom of the heart... on its way to taking out the spine.

The following four are a 2" group dead center, or near as makes a difference, on the heart.

Which is not quite fair - because the first round would have more than likely dropped him into a puddle of his own excrement, at best paralyzed from the waist down.


So, thanks.




GR

 

[Garandimal]

Whatever those bullets would've struck, chances are very good that a JHP would do a FAR better job ending the confrontation than hardball.

So a .45 ACP Ball, through the heart and spine, wouldn't have stopped the fight quick enough?

Or, is it that less effective shot placement is more effective with HP ammo.

...Which is probably true.

That's why my carry load is HST.




GR

 

[CraigC]

When you're fighting for your life and every little bit counts, a ragged 1" hole is always better than an icepick. So unless you're able to hit the spine or brain every single time, it's probably best to stack the odds in your favor.

 

[Garandimal]

When you're fighting for your life and every little bit counts, a ragged 1" hole is always better than an icepick. So unless you're able to hit the spine or brain every single time, it's probably best to stack the odds in your favor.

Great drama.

This is your .45 ACP Ball... "icepick."

​

GR

​

 

[C-grunt]

Those shots look good but they are just on a two dimensional piece of paper. Not even taking into account the angle of entry determining trajectory, different things inside the body are likely to change the path of the bullet. From what Ive seen bullets will change path inside the body pretty frequently when encountering bones or even strong tissue.

A couple coworkers had a gunfight with a chick this year and shot her in a full on side profile. One round was a 180 grain HST 40 that hit her square center of mass just below the arm pit and exited center chest. Big exit wound. Because of the location of the entry and exit wound we believed she had a wound through the right lung and possibly the heart. We treated her for a sucking chest wound and applied chest seals.

Turns out the bullet never actually entered the rib cage. It followed the connective tissues below the chest muscles around until it exited the chest. Talking to medical professionals that connective tissue is very strong and is considered a substantial barrier inside the body.

The other round was a 230 grain +P HST that hit her square in the upper arm just below the should joint. The bullet shattered the humerus bone and then stopped immediately after inside the armpit area, again not entering the rib cage.

Im not sure what point the Paul Herrel video is trying to make for you. He shot the 9mm gun faster and it proved effective on the meat target when using good hollow point ammunition. Just like Im seeing in the real world with my students shooting the 9mm guns better and the 9mm Gold Dot proving to be effective.

 

[C-grunt]

Here is one of our officers using a 9mm to defend herself. Shot was a bit low, hitting the guy at the bottom of the sternum and going through the upper abdomen. Dropped him. He was in the hospital for about 5 months. Had he not been shot a mile away from a good trauma ER, he probably would have died.

 

[CraigC]

Great drama.

This is your .45 ACP Ball... "icepick."

Unfortunately, the actual permanent wound channel in real tissue is a lot less dramatic. It will be less than bullet diameter.

 

[Kleanbore]

the second vid has his empirical testing and conclusions.

"5 rounds/ 5 sec. from low ready," for me, is w/in five seconds, including the draw. Split times being b/t 0.5 and 0.75 seconds...he first one, was the center mass hit ....The following four are a 2" group

The first one, was the center mass hit - which would have entered the sternum, taking out the top of the liver a/o the bottom of the heart... on its way to taking out the spine

Anecdotal. Nothing of value can be concluded from one video demo of a man firing slowly, or from assumptions drawn from looking at one slow-fire 2D stationary target.

Those shots look good but they are just on a two dimensional piece of paper. Not even taking into account the angle of entry determining trajectory, different things inside the body are likely to change the path of the bullet.

Yep.

The scientific method requires much more data, with statistical variation recorded, An awful lot of study has gone into this subject, and the conclusions have been validated.

It also requires more than a lay person's assumptions about wounding mechanics.

One shot may effect an immediate physical stop, in one circumstance. Or six shots may be necessary.

If it takes six, they had better be fired very quickly.

 

[Garandimal]

Unfortunately, the actual permanent wound channel in real tissue is a lot less dramatic. It will be less than bullet diameter.

So, not an "icepick" after all.

But still larger than 9mm... even most expanded HP's.




GR

 

[Zendude]

The other round was a 230 grain +P HST that hit her square in the upper arm just below the should joint. The bullet shattered the humerus bone and then stopped immediately after inside the armpit area, again not entering the rib cage.

This is not the first time I have heard of something like this happening. Sometimes 18 inches of gel penetration is not enough. But it’s all a roll of the dice I suppose.

 

[C-grunt]

This is not the first time I have heard of something like this happening. Sometimes 18 inches of gel penetration is not enough. But it’s all a roll of the dice I suppose.

Duty handguns don't do well against heavy bone. One of the reasons I don't train students to rely on headshots to stop the threat. Lots of thick heavy bone.

 

[C-grunt]

So, not an "icepick" after all.

But still larger than 9mm... even most expanded HP's.




GR

Most quality 9mm hollow points expand between .5 and .6 inches.

 

[C-grunt]

Since it's been brought up let's see how modern good 9mm hollow points work in testing. Lucky Gunner tests is probably the biggest public accessible database for testing. It's not the FBI tests but it's fairly close.

These expansion averages are shot from a 3.5 inch barrel S&W M&P9c into clear gel covered in 4 layers of denim.

Barnes 115 grn TAC-XPD .70
Corbon 115 grn .56
Corbon 115 grn DPX .69
HST 124 .61
HST 124+P .66
HST 147 .61
HST 147+P .60
HST Micro 150 .71
Critical Defense 115 .50
Critical Duty 135 .43
Critical Duty 135+P .47
V Crown 124 .52
Gold Dot 115 .55
Gold Dot 124+P .52
Gold Dot 124 .54
Gold Dot 147 .42


There are several other bullets in the test that I didnt include because I dont recommend them. Such as the Golden Saber. Ive seen it used in a few shootings and Ive seen it exhibit jacket separation more than once. I dont think it's a bad choice, but Id buy something else personally. The older design Federal Hydrashok is well past it's prime at this point and I ahvent bought any in 15 years.

The test shows the Critical Duty showing mediocre expansion and more than wanted penetration. Ive read that the Critical Duty was made specifically for duty use and is designed for adequate expansion and good penetration when used with a full size gun. The Critical Defense on the other hand was made for more expansion and less penetration when used with a compact gun. I have a hunch if shot through a 4.5 inch barrel the Critical Duty will give more expansion and a little bit less penetration. I know it passed FBI testing.

 

[CraigC]

So, not an "icepick" after all.

But still larger than 9mm... even most expanded HP's.




GR

No, definitely not larger than expanded 9mm HP's. The icepick comment was not really all that exaggerated.

 

[Garandimal]

Most quality 9mm hollow points expand between .5 and .6 inches.

Which is a matter of semantics... assuming that they do, in fact, expand, and penetrate.

As opposed to the .45 ACP...

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GR

 

[Garandimal]

No, definitely not larger than expanded 9mm HP's. The icepick comment was not really all that exaggerated.

Which is to say that it was a dramatic attempt to artificially support your dubious contention.




GR

 

[Kleanbore]

Which is a matter of semantics..

How so?

...assuming that they do, in fact, expand, and penetrate.

If they don't , they do not pass the test protocol.

 

[Kleanbore]

Which is to say that it was a dramatic attempt to artificially support your dubious contention.

Please base your posts on verifiable facts or expert opinion.

 

[DR505]

The FBI switched from .40 S&W to the 9mm for a variety of reasons even though there was relatively equal performance between the two rounds; easier to shoot, less cost (means more shooting for same cash outlay), more ammo in the weapon, fewer disqualifications of new agents, and from a maintenance standpoint it is easier on the firearm.

I recall a shooting where the .45 ACP Golden Saber failed to penetrate the windshield and driver...switched to the bonded version after that, and in a short time pulled that caliber from agents' holsters.

I was an FI when we still had revolvers and the 10mm, and watched the progression through various calibers and handgun types over the years. My last issue firearm was a Glock 19M with Critical Duty 135 grain +P ammo. I was happy enough to carry that.

 

[John Joseph]

IMHO this is a first world problem.
If Boko Haram is kidnapping your daughter, you shouldn't fret over if your ammo is bonded or not.

 

[CraigC]

Which is to say that it was a dramatic attempt to artificially support your dubious contention.

Not really. As I said, it was a slight exaggeration, to make a point. It's not a dubious contention. It's an opinion based on the use of hardball on living tissue. How many hardball wound channels have you examined? What do you have besides a stop action photo of a bullet traversing ballistic gel? Which actually is a dramatic attempt to artificially support your dubious contention. Because the picture depicts the temporary wound channel and trivializes how much the shape of the bullet has on wound characteristics. The permanent wound channel will be MUCH smaller than that depicted in the photo. Because hardball causes very little tissue disruption. It casually slips through soft tissues causing very little damage. A flat nosed solid or JHP crushes the tissue in front of it, as well as surrounding tissue. This is a major factor that you completely ignore.

 

[Kleanbore]

There are at least two aspects to defensive handgun wounding effectiveness.

One has to do with the physical or mechanical effects that bullets penetrating the body are designed to accomplish; for this, we set aside the medical effect, or the effects of "shot placement"..

On that subject, there are tww things to consider:

1. Penetration--the bullets must penetrate far enough, through bone and flesh after having penetrated clothing, etc; there is only so much penetration that can be of benefit; and too much is undesirable.
2. The wounding effect--the permanent wound channel. Bullets must damage tissue, not just hit and move it.

Regarding No. 1, FMJ bullets generally penetrate quite a lot, and perhaps too much. The best premium defensive ammunition is designed to penetrate enough, but not too much most of the time in varied circumstances. We wan tthe latter, if we have the choice

Regarding No.2, because bullet designs that tend to push flesh out of the way are less effective than those that crush and destroy tissue as they travel though the body, defensive ammunition has the advantage.

As CraigC explains,

"Because hardball causes very little tissue disruption, it casually slips through soft tissues causing very little damage. A flat nosed solid or JHP crushes the tissue in front of it, as well as surrounding tissue."
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That was one of the main reasons for the criticism of the old 158 grain LRN bullets often used in .38 Special ammunition.

Now to the second aspect: to effect a timely physical stop, bullets must strike the body in places that will cause that result.

That's often referred to as "shot placement", but it really has little to do with deliberate shot placement on a target .

The defender lacks the time to even wonder about what the bullets will do inside the body.

It is natural for a lay person to look at an expanded .45 bullet and to conclude that a hit with one should stop anyone.

It just might--or not. A shot though one lung would create quite a medical problem, but it might do very little to slow someone getting ready tp squeeze a trigger, or someone charging with a knife from close range.

For that, we have to increase the chance of hits on something vital, and we do that by shooting several times, during the short interval in which the opportunity presents itself.

That discussion would take us into the subject of the recoil of the gun, and beyond the subject or the OP.

 

[Robert]

Enough.