JR24
Member
I think I still have some polymer .38s in the basement somewhere.
New primary military round will be 6.8 and it will have a plastic case, not brass
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I think I still have some polymer .38s in the basement somewhere.
JCooperfan1911
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The Glock haters who hate plastic guns must be about to gag.
Plastic ammo??
If it can cut back on the cost of raws, and can be applied to civy rounds, I am hoping to see it on the shelf?
Imagine a plastic cased 22 LR that does away with brass. It could be super cheap for plinking.
Plastic ammo??
If it can cut back on the cost of raws, and can be applied to civy rounds, I am hoping to see it on the shelf?
Imagine a plastic cased 22 LR that does away with brass. It could be super cheap for plinking.
giggitygiggity
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I’ll believe it when I see it.
In this day and age, the individual and his rifle/other small arms is far less relevant than it was in the past. I am not saying that a rifleman is ineffective or not relevant completely. As yes, we all know what farmers with AKs can do to a technologically advanced coalition. However, I argue that the juice of a new small arms weapons system isn’t with the squeeze. Cyber operations, advanced aircraft (F-35), and long-range missiles (land, surface, and sub-surface) is where the focus should be. I predict that competitive edge that the NGSW provides over the SAW, M16, M4, IAR, etc is not going to make the difference between us winning or losing a war, but our ability to conduct and defend against cyber attacks might. Please note that I am not debating that the NGSW is more powerful than 5.56 weapons nor am I advocating abandoning small arms and infantry as they are still essential to dealing with situations such as insurgencies where close and personal interaction is necessary.
In this day and age, the individual and his rifle/other small arms is far less relevant than it was in the past. I am not saying that a rifleman is ineffective or not relevant completely. As yes, we all know what farmers with AKs can do to a technologically advanced coalition. However, I argue that the juice of a new small arms weapons system isn’t with the squeeze. Cyber operations, advanced aircraft (F-35), and long-range missiles (land, surface, and sub-surface) is where the focus should be. I predict that competitive edge that the NGSW provides over the SAW, M16, M4, IAR, etc is not going to make the difference between us winning or losing a war, but our ability to conduct and defend against cyber attacks might. Please note that I am not debating that the NGSW is more powerful than 5.56 weapons nor am I advocating abandoning small arms and infantry as they are still essential to dealing with situations such as insurgencies where close and personal interaction is necessary.
Skeptic13
Member
I have to agree. There is still so much politics standing in the way of a new firearm getting into the hands of soldiers and a very anti military air in Washington now that it wouldn't surprise me a bit if this never comes to fruition.
Deus Machina
Member
I 100% believe it's possible. I just don't know if it's currently possible with available materials and manufacturing, to the benefits it would provide.
It's probably less of a concern for materials than it is for logistics and budget, too. I'm not sure you can make good polymer casings cheaper than brass. Yet.
But it would certainly free up a good chunk of budget once they got good enough to replace the casings in heavy weaponry.
As it is, the rifleman isn't the driving force of the military any more, but he is the most important one in a secondary manner. You can't capture a building or town with bombs. You can't direct artillery or missile strikes without getting eyes on target. You can't defend a forward base by circling F35s around it 24/7.
The soldier is no longer the most important weapon, but the biggest guns are useless without someone to target them. And making your average soldier more mobile means it's faster and easier to get them into position to do so.
Anything that takes weight off the soldier makes him more mobile, or allows them to carry enough to make resupply less frantic.
But let's face it, any time they cut ammunition weight in half, they decide that means the soldier can carry three times as much.
It's probably less of a concern for materials than it is for logistics and budget, too. I'm not sure you can make good polymer casings cheaper than brass. Yet.
But it would certainly free up a good chunk of budget once they got good enough to replace the casings in heavy weaponry.
As it is, the rifleman isn't the driving force of the military any more, but he is the most important one in a secondary manner. You can't capture a building or town with bombs. You can't direct artillery or missile strikes without getting eyes on target. You can't defend a forward base by circling F35s around it 24/7.
The soldier is no longer the most important weapon, but the biggest guns are useless without someone to target them. And making your average soldier more mobile means it's faster and easier to get them into position to do so.
Anything that takes weight off the soldier makes him more mobile, or allows them to carry enough to make resupply less frantic.
But let's face it, any time they cut ammunition weight in half, they decide that means the soldier can carry three times as much.
DustyGmt
Member
I hate this stuff, the new whiz bang thing. Brass + Lead = Good. It's a solution in search of a problem. Although if I was a soldier, I would probably have more appreciation for the prospect of carrying 30% more ammo in the same weight. Is there not a better solution than reinventing proven, time tested, reliable firearms and their ammo to get soldiers more ammo.
Maybe ammo carriers via drone fleets.
Maybe ammo carriers via drone fleets.
George P
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Maybe the view should be how can we get our soldiers to be better shooters? The number of rounds needed to kill an enemy in WWi vs WWII vs Korea, Vietnam, and now the ME has grown exponentially with a lot of spray and pray
Riomouse911
Member
I guess they got dazzled by Daisy’s caseless and Remington’s ETronix rounds.
Two more “wave of the future” ideas that didn’t gain any traction.
As for this latest report, I’ll wait until I start seeing “plastic brass” left in quantity on the shooting range before I’ll even think about committing to buy.
Stay safe.
mcb
Member
Etronx should have been a huge success if Remington had done it right. Nearly all weapon systems 20mm and up use electric ignition. There are lots of advantages to it especially if you're willing to step away from traditional configurations.I guess they got dazzled by Daisy’s caseless and Remington’s ETronix rounds.
Two more “wave of the future” ideas that didn’t gain any traction.
As for this latest report, I’ll wait until I start seeing “plastic brass” left in quantity on the shooting range before I’ll even think about committing to buy.
Stay safe.
Riomouse911
Member
For major caliber and the super rapid/complex systems like Phalanx I certainly can see how electrical ignition systems would be a huge plus. Lots of things causing great stress on parts are going on, a hammer/firing pin or striker would be another point of potential failure at a critical time.
For a bolt action rifle, I guess knowing the firing system wouldn’t freeze up in a blizzard and the lock time saved by near instant ignition just couldn’t outweigh the cost of the rounds (or primers if reloading), the scarcity of the proprietary ammo/components and the fear the 9V battery would die on you when you’re hunting out in the boonies.
I can honestly say I don’t think I saw an ETronix rifle in a gun store rack, but I do recall seeing a few dusty boxes of .243 ETronix ammo on a store shelf many years ago. ( I remember wanting to buy a single one for my collection when I saw it.
) Stay safe.
mcb
Member
New video on the General Dynamics entry to NGSW and the pair True Velocity ammo.
An earlier video from the same guy shooting the Sig version.
An earlier video from the same guy shooting the Sig version.
herrwalther
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The military has been experimenting with plastic cases for awhile. I will believe it when I see it. Prototypes are one thing. Mass production of an entirely new concept is something else.
mcb
Member
The powers-that-be, believe the next major conflict might involve fighting soldiers with comparably body armor to what our current soldiers wear. This will be unlike the asymmetric warfare of recent conflicts were our adversaries were for the most part technologically well behind our soldiers in equipment. The currently used 556 ammo, even AP (M995) is not able to (reliably) defeat the current Interceptor body armor and its peers in other armies. If we went up against a peer army that weakness would be bad for our soldiers. This new 6.8mm projectile the Army developed, and is requiring the three NGSW competitors to use in their own ammo design, was designed to defeat armor comparable to what we currently field and its peers.
Airborne Falcon
Member
The oceans are too full of plastics now. Are all of these plastics self destructive or green? Not being re-loadable will make the world knee deep in plastic is short order.
You mean like shotshell hulls in GB?
I saw a documentary about that recently. Apparently the Brits have so many spent shot shells that there are hills and hills of them ... where is that darn documentary.
::::::::: long pause ::::::::::
Hey, it's a legit observation/question.
And I stumbled over this in the process .... this will hurt your feelings if you are a reloader as am I.
mcb
Member
Yep, I even remember reloading them. That said True Velocity had steel rims and the polymers they are using did not exist when Activ was on the market.
Jim Watson
Member
True Velocity will cheerfully make standard dimension plastic ammo.
If I were an Army tester, I would order up a pallet or two each of 5.56 and 7.62 and see how it shot in existing GI weapons.
If I were an Army tester, I would order up a pallet or two each of 5.56 and 7.62 and see how it shot in existing GI weapons.
Demi-human
maybe likes firearms a little bit…
The first video that mcb posted above on the General Dynamics shows them putting a replacement barrel on an M240 and shooting the new ammo. Not a 308, but if it is compatible with existing weapons, that is a plus for the military. I also like the default sound suppression.
The stats mentioned said 60,000 psi, 3000 FPS with a 135 grain projectile. That sounds pretty impressive.
I hope it works out one way or the other and some of this gets into the civilian market. I am curious about the cost of the polymer cases compared to brass. It ought to be reloadable with I am sure minor differences.
The Tomorrow War would have been a whole lot better if they had gotten with one of these companies and talked about super AP ammo to kill the aliens.
upptick
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[QUOTE="The idea is to put a larger weight round out the pipe,[/QUOTE]
...and one that can explicitly defeat the current and foreseeable future body armor of the U.S. near-peer, i.e. ChiCom and Russia. In other words, this exercise is not so much about weight savings, per se, and more about something far more urgent. Hence, I definitely see the project going forward, perhaps with some expediency.
...and one that can explicitly defeat the current and foreseeable future body armor of the U.S. near-peer, i.e. ChiCom and Russia. In other words, this exercise is not so much about weight savings, per se, and more about something far more urgent. Hence, I definitely see the project going forward, perhaps with some expediency.
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PWC
Member
Look at MCB's movie of the Textron system and see how dirty the "neck" of the ejected case is. The chamber will get dirty.
mcb
Member
Watch the video closely (pause it an use the "," & "." keys to go frame by frame) and you will see the case telescoping rounds are translucent on the front half, you can see the bullets through the cases in the belt feeding into the gun on the back side. That dirt you are seeing on the ejected cases is almost entirely on the inside of that case. The pressure of the propellent cause the case telescoping rounds to stretch lengthwise slightly sealing against the face of the barrel. Also remember the moving chamber is the larger case OD diameter and the barrel is bore diameter an thus there is no direct path from the high pressure in the case and bore to the interface between chamber and OD of case. No doubt some gases are going to get there eventually but it will be significantly less than with traditional cases.
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