VG
Member
The USMC was the proponent agency for the A2 version upgrade.
The vehicle mounted grunts seem to favor a Carbine length rifle ala the M4.
The plastic, no-account M-16 rabbit shooter that our Army warriors have painfully. .
- Thread starter Waitone
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The vehicle mounted grunts seem to favor a Carbine length rifle ala the M4.
Ditto on Art's post
Quote:
Some people just need to be shot more.
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Yep, can't argue with that. I don't believe many people are under the impression that there is some magic bullet out there.
His post brought to mind Lester Gillis, AKA "Baby Face" Nelson.
There were two G Men that had him pinned. Well Gillis got so pissed, he stood up and just started walking toward the federal vehicle. If I remember I believe they proceeded to shoot Gillis a total of 18 times. With .38's and a shotgun.
Gillis gunned the two FBI agents down with a Thompson. Drove away, and died later that day. Talk about resolve.
Quote:
Some people just need to be shot more.
-----------------------------------------------------
Yep, can't argue with that. I don't believe many people are under the impression that there is some magic bullet out there.
His post brought to mind Lester Gillis, AKA "Baby Face" Nelson.
There were two G Men that had him pinned. Well Gillis got so pissed, he stood up and just started walking toward the federal vehicle. If I remember I believe they proceeded to shoot Gillis a total of 18 times. With .38's and a shotgun.
Gillis gunned the two FBI agents down with a Thompson. Drove away, and died later that day. Talk about resolve.
"This is something that the M80 7.62mm does not do, so the wounding effect of the 6.8mm may actually be greater."
This is something that I have been told by a couple people who have BTDT in Vietnam using M14s. The 7.62 Nato has more "power" than the 5.56, and greater range. But according to these guys, the wounding effects were not that great. The bullet would drill a 7.62mm diameter hole through the target. The bullet would not fragment, yaw, or expand with any regularity and often resulted in multiple shots to put the enemy down.
I have said this before on this forum, but one of the big problems from my point of view with military cartridges is the bullet used. For whatever reason: treaty, self imposed limitations or whatever, they can not use expanding bullets. In addition they need to find bullets that provide good wounding potential in flesh, yet at the same time provide adequate penetration for targets behind cover/wearing body armor/heavily clothed...................... With my limited knowlege, this seems to be a very difficult task. I know as a hunter that I can load bullets that will completely fragment (varmint bullets), bullets that expand yet retain most of their mass (softpoints), or bullets that hardly deform at all to provide maximum penetration (FMJ). However, I know of no bullet that will do all three. We do have bullets that do two of the three very well; the "Partition" bullet where you have a soft nose that expands, then a solid rear end that will continue to penetrate even if the front end is broken off.
I think we blame a lot of bullet problems on the cartridge itself when it comes to military firearms and cartridges. I also think that as long as we are using FMJ bullets that the 6.8 will not offer any significant improvement as far as wounding is concerned. It will give you a longer effective range providing the shooter is up to the task and combat conditions allow careful aimed shots which I doubt happens a whole lot.
This is something that I have been told by a couple people who have BTDT in Vietnam using M14s. The 7.62 Nato has more "power" than the 5.56, and greater range. But according to these guys, the wounding effects were not that great. The bullet would drill a 7.62mm diameter hole through the target. The bullet would not fragment, yaw, or expand with any regularity and often resulted in multiple shots to put the enemy down.
I have said this before on this forum, but one of the big problems from my point of view with military cartridges is the bullet used. For whatever reason: treaty, self imposed limitations or whatever, they can not use expanding bullets. In addition they need to find bullets that provide good wounding potential in flesh, yet at the same time provide adequate penetration for targets behind cover/wearing body armor/heavily clothed...................... With my limited knowlege, this seems to be a very difficult task. I know as a hunter that I can load bullets that will completely fragment (varmint bullets), bullets that expand yet retain most of their mass (softpoints), or bullets that hardly deform at all to provide maximum penetration (FMJ). However, I know of no bullet that will do all three. We do have bullets that do two of the three very well; the "Partition" bullet where you have a soft nose that expands, then a solid rear end that will continue to penetrate even if the front end is broken off.
I think we blame a lot of bullet problems on the cartridge itself when it comes to military firearms and cartridges. I also think that as long as we are using FMJ bullets that the 6.8 will not offer any significant improvement as far as wounding is concerned. It will give you a longer effective range providing the shooter is up to the task and combat conditions allow careful aimed shots which I doubt happens a whole lot.
Well, I don't know but I would imagine you are right (the 5.56 with something like a Hornady V-Max or a Nosler Ballistic Tip would produce a pretty grizzly wound, but give you no penetration: a .30 Ballistic Tip against an unarmored human would have more than adequate penetration and would also completly fragment; I have shot an Antelope with one). The problem however is that in standard military ball configuration, the 5.56 will yaw and fragment and the 7.62 doesn't. It sounds like they are making this 6.8 to that it becomes unstable in flesh which would be a huge step forward. Larger caliber, more range, more "power" combined with a fairly effective bullet. It just might be the best thing yet for military cartridges.
Selfdfenz
Member
Taken as a whole:
New you-can-tell-it's-Mattel-it's-swell un-battle tested plastic battle rifle...the XM8
New and un-battle tested cartridge to go in it.....the 6.8 rem SPC
Developed by the US miliatary whole or in part......and endorsed by a retired Col., Remington and one dude (the first) in a hunting mag that shot a deer with it .
Outcome....drum roll please.......
Our troopes will still be pickin up AKs in the next war.
But the Army will work out the bugs over the following 20 years.
S-
Just when DiFi and Shmooooomer have convinced the Million Moms how deadly the 223 AR assault rifle is, Uncle Sugar deems it unlethal enough and obsolete and rains on their collective parade...C&R here we come.
New you-can-tell-it's-Mattel-it's-swell un-battle tested plastic battle rifle...the XM8
New and un-battle tested cartridge to go in it.....the 6.8 rem SPC
Developed by the US miliatary whole or in part......and endorsed by a retired Col., Remington and one dude (the first) in a hunting mag that shot a deer with it .
Outcome....drum roll please.......
Our troopes will still be pickin up AKs in the next war.
But the Army will work out the bugs over the following 20 years.
S-
Just when DiFi and Shmooooomer have convinced the Million Moms how deadly the 223 AR assault rifle is, Uncle Sugar deems it unlethal enough and obsolete and rains on their collective parade...C&R here we come.
From what I read on www.ammo-oracle.com, the west German 7.62 NATO had a thin jacket, and would fragment and cause a nasty wound, just like the US 55 gr. M193 load does.
On the other hand, the Swiss 62. gr. 5.56 NATO load is specifically designed with a thick jacket that doesn't allow the bullet to fragment, to prevent "unneeded suffering" in the wounded combatent. The US M80 7.62 NATO load doesn't create a very large wound channel either.
Perhaps it's time for the US to revisit the age-old tradition of FMJ military ammo and equip our forces, at the very least the ones fighting terrorism, with more effective 'police-style' ammunition. If we're going to press them into sevice as the world's police force then they ought to be equipped for the task.
Using 'wounding' ammunition in battle, rather than 'stopping' ammunition is going to get more soliders killed and hurt.. particularly our soldiers. We can cluster bomb 'em till their teeth rattle, blast 'em with high explosive cannon rounds, light 'em up with incindiaries... but oh, let's skip the one-shot stop ammo because it's unhumane. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If we're really all this civilized we should let the leader of each country face the other down with a paintball gun and resolve our grievances that way.
On the other hand, the Swiss 62. gr. 5.56 NATO load is specifically designed with a thick jacket that doesn't allow the bullet to fragment, to prevent "unneeded suffering" in the wounded combatent. The US M80 7.62 NATO load doesn't create a very large wound channel either.
Perhaps it's time for the US to revisit the age-old tradition of FMJ military ammo and equip our forces, at the very least the ones fighting terrorism, with more effective 'police-style' ammunition. If we're going to press them into sevice as the world's police force then they ought to be equipped for the task.
Using 'wounding' ammunition in battle, rather than 'stopping' ammunition is going to get more soliders killed and hurt.. particularly our soldiers. We can cluster bomb 'em till their teeth rattle, blast 'em with high explosive cannon rounds, light 'em up with incindiaries... but oh, let's skip the one-shot stop ammo because it's unhumane. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If we're really all this civilized we should let the leader of each country face the other down with a paintball gun and resolve our grievances that way.
artherd
member
Tony- very well put, and I should have ammended my statements to concern FMJ .308 and .30-06 which indeed do not fragment in human tissue like softpoint hunting rounds.
Infact, in some (likely rare) cases a fragmenting 5.56mm may wound more than FMJ .308.
6.8mm should of course be an improvement on 5.56mm, but as to how much over 77gr SMK Mk 262 Mod1 5.56mm, I am not sure. 1%? 5%? 25%?
I am waiting on more data, and I am not as convinced at the 'number' of reports of FTS with 5.56 are endemic of any particuliar inherent problem with the calibre.
M855 on the other hand, may be to blame. But the choice of a poor bullet, when there is a much better alternative already being fielded in mk 262, is hardly reason to ditch the entire calibre.
Infact, in some (likely rare) cases a fragmenting 5.56mm may wound more than FMJ .308.
6.8mm should of course be an improvement on 5.56mm, but as to how much over 77gr SMK Mk 262 Mod1 5.56mm, I am not sure. 1%? 5%? 25%?
I am waiting on more data, and I am not as convinced at the 'number' of reports of FTS with 5.56 are endemic of any particuliar inherent problem with the calibre.
M855 on the other hand, may be to blame. But the choice of a poor bullet, when there is a much better alternative already being fielded in mk 262, is hardly reason to ditch the entire calibre.
Grendelizer
Member
Quote: "Some people just need to be shot more."
That's right. I recall a GI on Guadalcanal during WW2 complaining he needed to pump six rounds of .30-06 from his Garand into a fanatical Japanese. There is no magic cartridge.
Having said that, the round that delivers the greatest amount of actual, physical tissue destruction is better than a lesser round, all else being equal.
John
That's right. I recall a GI on Guadalcanal during WW2 complaining he needed to pump six rounds of .30-06 from his Garand into a fanatical Japanese. There is no magic cartridge.
Having said that, the round that delivers the greatest amount of actual, physical tissue destruction is better than a lesser round, all else being equal.
John
Tony Williams
Member
I don't know, but there have been anecdotal reports from Iraq that the Mk 262 is not performing as well as tests suggested.
The reported case when an Iraqi took seven solid body hits from around 25 yards and still killed two US soldiers involved the Mk 262. Maybe too much is being expected.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum
artherd
member
Tony- Belive me, I wish like hell I could pack the punch of a 5" HE shell into a package the size of a 1911 and give it to our guys overseas.
More realistically, I would like to give our guys SP/Ballistic-Tip ammo for their 7.62x51mm weapons.
And give each squad a Designated Marksman shooting an SR-25 or M-25 (both in 7.62x51 of course. Or even in the newer ARs chambered in .300WSM/RSAUM).
There is also a 100grain SMK loading for the 5.56 which may be worth a look. The gel tests I have seen show the 100gr as the best trama-inducer (both temporary and perminant cavity, as well as both quickest expansion and deepest penetration) yet.
If some guys take 12 .30 cal rounds to stop, I can see how some would need 7 5.56mm. It's a damn shame about those two boys of ours, and I support anything that will lead to a tangible advantage to their fellow men.
More realistically, I would like to give our guys SP/Ballistic-Tip ammo for their 7.62x51mm weapons.
And give each squad a Designated Marksman shooting an SR-25 or M-25 (both in 7.62x51 of course. Or even in the newer ARs chambered in .300WSM/RSAUM).
There is also a 100grain SMK loading for the 5.56 which may be worth a look. The gel tests I have seen show the 100gr as the best trama-inducer (both temporary and perminant cavity, as well as both quickest expansion and deepest penetration) yet.
If some guys take 12 .30 cal rounds to stop, I can see how some would need 7 5.56mm. It's a damn shame about those two boys of ours, and I support anything that will lead to a tangible advantage to their fellow men.
Lobotomy Boy
Member
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Artherd, I think you are right on the money. We should maybe even give each squad two designated marksmen, one with an SR-25 and the other with a Barret lightweight 50. That might be overkill for urban fighting, but even in a tight urban situation one marksman with an accurate 7.62 semi auto could save a lot of lives.
seeker_two
Member
Small-arms development has been one area where the Russian philosophy has trounced Western ideas. Think about it: they've used the same type of gun since 1947, but they developed more effective ammo for those guns. The Dragunov's special sniper load & the 5.45x39 "poison bullet" that wounded & killed far better than any similar caliber.
We need to rid ourselves of this limitation to FMJ & look toward designing bullets that give better performance in existing platforms. I'm a fan of the "poison-bullet" design of the 5.45x39, but the new EMFJ's show some promise too. Maybe even something like the Taurus HEX bullets (no lead) could make the M9 a more effective sidearm.
If we're getting a new state-of-the-art whizbang service rifle, let's not hamper it w/ century-old bullet philosophy. Let's try something new...
We need to rid ourselves of this limitation to FMJ & look toward designing bullets that give better performance in existing platforms. I'm a fan of the "poison-bullet" design of the 5.45x39, but the new EMFJ's show some promise too. Maybe even something like the Taurus HEX bullets (no lead) could make the M9 a more effective sidearm.
If we're getting a new state-of-the-art whizbang service rifle, let's not hamper it w/ century-old bullet philosophy. Let's try something new...
I havent examined an AR REAL close for some time. But, i dont seem to remember it actually being MADE of plastic. In fact the only plastic i recall finding on the rifle was the furniture. You can put a synthetic stock an an M14 too. Does that turn the M14 into a "plastic rifle"?
artherd
member
Yup, and give the guys covering their Close Quarters butts EO-Teched' M4s so they get the shots off FAST.
And it seems this is actually what's finally happening in the Designated Marksman. (I bet KAC can't make SR-25s fast enough, and M14s are being used in their place. Each is a compentent and accurate .308, so good.)
Now if we could just ditch this silly 'FMJ only' ammo policy, I'd send a few cases of Ballistic Silvertip round to our guys on my nickel!
.223 is good for MANY things. 800yard counter-sniper role is not one of them.
A 14 lb Scoped .308 is good for MANY things. Swinging up fast in a darkened house and shooting the guy with an AK before he shoots you, is not one of them.
Match the tool to the task.
VG
Member
An IBCT Squad is nine men. A Barret team is three men and a 7.62 sniper team is two. So you've made that a pretty special purpose outfit that is not very mobile.
IBCT squads do have a designated marksman per squad (M16 family), and a sniper team at company level. As well as a Battalion level sniper squad of 7 men, either 3 7.62 teams or two .50 cal teams.
Mulliga
Member
Well, I just got back from a range day our college shooting club held. I shot a former Ranger's AR-15 (thanks Tom!). It was a 20" Olympic Arms rifle with a rather impressive muzzle brake.
Basically zero recoil (I couldn't bump fire it like a SAR-1), loud as hell, and it handled pretty well. Worked as reliably as the SAR-1. Frankly, I came away really, really wanting an AR. Except for the hearing damage, I couldn't see any of the deficiencies people mention.
Basically zero recoil (I couldn't bump fire it like a SAR-1), loud as hell, and it handled pretty well. Worked as reliably as the SAR-1. Frankly, I came away really, really wanting an AR. Except for the hearing damage
, I couldn't see any of the deficiencies people mention.- Status
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