The plastic, no-account M-16 rabbit shooter that our Army warriors have painfully. .

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last Friday my son's friend's father took them to Fort Eustis to see the XM-8. They saw it and some other weapons, were allowed to handle it and saw it disassembled and reassembled. He said it was light and cool (from a fifteen year old's perspective). They did not see a firepower demonstration.

Also found this at :
http://w4.pica.army.mil/PicatinnyPublic/warfighter/index.asp

Strategy change speeds new assault rifle development
By Beau Whittington


The XM8 could possibly be replacing the Army's assualt weapons as soon as the middle of fiscal 2006.
WASHINGTON (Army News Service) - A strategy change at the Program Executive Office, Soldier has speeded up the development of a potential replacement of the Army's assault weapons.

Lt. Col. Matthew Clarke, project manager for individual weapons at the Picatinny, N.J., research facility said the Army has ordered 200 XM8's for the Army Test and Evaluation Command to test during the last quarter of the year.

The heart of the weapon is the kinetic energy portion of the Heckler & Koch XM29 -- known as the objective individual combat weapon -- successfully tested four years ago.

The XM29 is an integrated dual-munitions bursting weapon. It has an over and under barrel with a fire control. The top barrel fires bursting munitions using a fire control that programs the round, telling it where to explode.

"It knows where to blow up," Clarke explained. "The fire control has a ballistic computer with a range finder allowing it to program the round to within one meter of its target."

The bottom portion of the weapon is a 5.56mm assault rifle.

The original requirement called for the weapon to pull apart, providing separate assault and bursting munitions weapons.

When Clarke arrived at the center nine months ago the $50-million project had produced nothing for the field, even though the prototype proved successful years earlier.

Analyzing the progress, Clarke and his staff made a major strategy shift to get a new generation of arms to the field. They moved from what he defined as an "evolutionary approach" to "spiral development."

Under the evolution strategy, developers planned to build a complete system, then improve on it. The first built would be about an 80 percent solution. The second about 90 percent and the third would be 100 percent.

"That approach bothered us because it would take too long to get new technology in the soldiers' hands," Clarke explained.

Under the spiral approach, the team broke the system into subsystems. This allows the parts to mature individually before being integrated into a single system.

This tack will put the technology in the field years before it could have been done under the original approach, Clarke said.

While the project manager emphasizes a lot of scrutiny remains before the XM8 could become the new generation assault rifle, he's confident the evaluations will be positive.

That confidence stems from H & K's initial test against an assault rifle system similar to the one being used in the MX8. Testers fired several hundred thousand rounds through a variety of different weapons. For instance, they took 10 weapons and fired 10,000 out of each weapon without cleaning them. Of the ten weapons tested there was only one mechanical failure. Additionally, the weapons' accuracy shifted less than 5 percent from factory specifications.


Firing 10,000 rounds each from 10 XM8 weapons without cleaning them resulted in only one mechanical failure.
"Such a firing would wear out the weapons currently in our inventory," Clarke said.

The Test and Evaluation Command will use two types of testing -- developmental and operational -- to ascertain the XM8s viability.

Developmental testing is similar to what Consumer Reports magazine would do, Clarke explained.

"We will super-cool the weapon. We will fire it to failure to see what breaks," Clarke explained. "We'll drop it, we'll put chemicals on it to see how it reacts. That will provide the hard data to build a case for reliability, availability and maintainability, or not."

At the same time, testers will bring soldiers into the loop for limited operational testing.

"We will get soldiers to use the weapons in harsh conditions and get their opinions," Clarke continued.

"The proof will come when we start testing," Clarke said. "We have some theoretical numbers, but we will build weapons and we will test them hard. And, if the system is not significantly better than the existing weapons it's not going anywhere."

Discussions in forum on the Infantry Web site, www.infantry.army.mil, show some infantrymen question the value of fielding a new assault rifle delivering the same 5.56mm rounds already in service. They question the gain. Clarke, however, sees a lot of value added.

The XM8 is designed so the user -- either in the field or at the unit -- will be able to switch out barrels. It will come with different barrel lengths ranging from an assault weapon to an automatic rifle version.

"That means commanders will have the ability to tailor their weapon systems to day or night, like we do today, and for specific functions for soldiers throughout the unit," Clarke explained.

Moreover, using the same weapons platform reduces the logistics burden of using various weapons. Today, the M4s and M16s have only about an 80 percent commonality in parts. The XM8 we will have a 100 percent commonality.

The key is integrating functionality and improving modularity, reliability and durability while reducing weight, Clarke said.

"We'll either do it or we won't," he said. "If we do it and the Infantry wants it, then we will continue. If not, we won't."

"If everything goes green light across the board," Clarke said. "The weapon could begin reaching the field as early as the middle of fiscal year 2006.
 
The 6.5mm Grendel round has better ballistics than the 6.8 at longer ranges. Check out this (admittedly NON-objective) site: http://www.65grendel.com/

The 6.5mm uses a far heavier range of bullets, with an (obviously) larger diameter, so the wound channel and impact on a target are far better than the 5.56 mm now used. 6.5mm is also one of the flattest shooting rounds out there, and experience going back over a century demonstrates this.
 
Trijicon makes scope sights that take a battery.

Not at the time Hackworth was writing. This was pre-Tripower and he was complaining about both the Reflex and the ACOG although since his writing left a lot to be desired it wasn't even clear if he understood that they were two different sights.
 
The best serving master gunner I know says about the 6.8 mm upgrade that Special Forces is presently reviewing,
Is he implying that they are testing 6.8mm in the XM8? I've heard absolutely nothing indicating this, nor that HK is looking at the 6.8. What I have heard, from people very close to its development, is that the S.F. are trying to get as many M16/M4 uppers chambered for 6.8 as they can, "for testing and evaluation."

fix,
6.8 might be damn near identical to .270 in measurement, but the round being discussed has no more in common with the .270 than the 30-30.
Comparing similar bullets in 6.8SPC and .270WIN, the 6.8 will hit any terminal velocity about 150 yards closer than the .270 would.
Code:
 _BC_ _MV_         0      50     100     150     200     250     300     350     400 | YARDS
0.365 2800 >   -2.53    0.24    1.85    2.11    0.92   -1.92   -6.58  -13.24  -21.69 | > Hor 6.8mm 18.0"
                2797    2674    2551    2431    2318    2205    2096    1990    1891 | fps, velocity

0.365 3200 >   -2.54   -0.30    1.06    1.40    0.63   -1.36   -4.71   -9.55  -15.87 | > .270WIN
                3197    3062    2929    2799    2675    2553    2433    2317    2207 | fps, velocity

-z
 
I am praying, real hard, that my BN is not issued the XM8. When I first saw that thing in the "Army Times" I thought it was just a testbed weapon ... "Oh hey look a Star Trek Gun" ... now that I hear that it is the "new new thing" it gives me one more reason to eventually jump ship. Add that to robotic drones on tracks, exoskeletal power-assisted armor, and the other things that they are trying to cook up in the labs, and I am really wondering if the fascination with high-tech has not gone too far in the wrong direction. :scrutiny:
 
Oh $^*!

Sam Adams:

The 6.5mm Grendel round has better ballistics than the 6.8 at longer ranges. Check out this (admittedly NON-objective) site: http://www.65grendel.com/

----------------------------------------------------------------



Whad'ya, go and post that for?


Just recently got it narrowed down to 300Whisper/Fireball and 458 SOCOM.


Dang man....now I've got a heavy week worth of reading again. Grr...
 
That means commanders will have the ability to tailor their weapon systems to day or night, like we do today, and for specific functions for soldiers throughout the unit," Clarke explained.

Um...yeah...they can tailor their weapon to the mission...assuming they have some way to carry all those extra barrels around. And all those extra barrels would be serious nightmare in the arms room. Sure, SAWs and 240/60s have extra barrel, but there's not that huge a number in a company. Now you're talking a couple extra barrels for every rifle-that's 200-250 barrels in an infantry company.
 
[rant]

Think of it as a 2005 Mercedes replacing a 1970s Ford Pinto.
Pfft. That guy needs to get a clue about new Mercedes's. My 1983 model is FFFFAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRR superior to any $85-120k Benz put out today, simply because it operates on a daily basis and has for 20 years, without requireing constant service. Look at the diesel's up till about 1990. With proper service (and sometimes improper service) they can be expected to keep chugging for 500k mi, usually more. MB gives away free mileadge badges to old cars for they are the symbols of the old quality.

That damned COMMAND system and all the other Mercedes Electronic Whiz-Bangsâ„¢ (did you know that Mercedes doesnt use anything that they dont own a patent for? My 1983 Buick had variable wiper speeds, but my 1983 Benz has 3 settings. :rolleyes: ) are the bane of the existence of all new Benz owners. Quality? Mercedes has been swirling down the crapper since the accountants took command of the business instead of in the hands of the engineers, where it belongs, circa '94. Hell, even the new C-class (the ones that look like eggs) that are being peddled as "the affordable Benz" (Benzes arent meant to be a Joe Sixpack car :cuss: :rolleyes: ) suck as far as quality goes. Plastic everything that breaks, lousy engines, etc. The only thing that holds up worth a damn nowadays is the E-class, because they are the Taxicab of Western Europe. They still use the old (late 80's-mid90's) E-class because they are reliable, unlike the new ones. Like I said, the new S-class is a spider web spun with Medusa's hair (ie snakes) of problems, you end up paying for it twice. To see more info (and ask questions) go towww.mercedeshop.com/shopforum .[/rant]



Wow. Didnt think I had that in me. All I have to say about the 5.56 is the expression my mother had when I showed her the piddly round we use in battle compared to the 30-06 of 20yrs before the 5.56's adaptation: :what: :scrutiny: :uhoh: .
 
Regarding 6.8SPC vs. 6.5Grendel:

It looks like 6.5Grendel has superior external ballistics. It can also use a wider range of bullets (than 6.8) and stay with AR15 magazine OAL because the neck is closer to the base.

Those who developed 6.8SPC settled in that bullet diameter and mass because of terminal ballistics tests. They specifically wanted high lethality, with an acceptible long range trajectory. You can read this from DocGKR on the TacticalForums thread on 6.8.

At this point, I haven't seen any ballistic gelatin tests of the different 6.5Grendel loads available.

We could debate the advantages and disadvantages of 6.5 vs 6.8 all day, but in my opinion, it would be irrelevant.. unless one of us can convince the Army / NATO to change their mind. The one that will succeed will be the one that has its "foot in the door" in military units and has support of the most large manufacturers. Whichever can gain some Mil/LE success with the support of the most industry will become most popular because of the economics of scale (and thus reduced cost).

This is just like how commercial success happens in many other areas. BetaMax was superior to VHS but failed because of licensing and marketing. In the computer architecture field, people are still bemoaning Alpha's death to other less elegant architectures.

-z
 
Risasi

Just recently got it narrowed down to 300Whisper/Fireball and 458 SOCOM.

Sorry to ruin your day. Oh, BTW, the same company that puts out the 6.5 Grendel (Alexander Arms) also puts out the .50 Beowulf. This may be better than the 458 SOCOM (though I haven't researched this at all, since I'm not into big and slow for rifles - I want long range accuracy, at which the Grendel round is excellent.

Have fun!:evil:
 
Zak Smith

I agree with you that absolute performance often has little/nothing to do with commercial success (sheesh, look at Microsoft) or whether the military adopts a weapon (too many examples to list). One thing that encourages me about the 6.5 Grendel is that it is commercially available NOW. Also, several bolt-gun makers are supposedly looking at producing guns that shoot it. Even if the military doesn't ultimately adopt it, it may become quite popular. Time will tell.
 
El Tejon- Hey Louis! It's designed from the ground up for killing the enemy! If you weren't asked for your blessing of the new round who cares!

Did I say it was identical to the .270? No, neither it is identical in DIAMETER to the 6mm and what bullet weights were those 6mm's? Their velocity? Sectional density?

Come on lets hear EXACTLY how they compare to the 6.8mmSPC.

The 6.8 has already been tested/used in Afgahnistan and it is the caliber SOCOM wants not something shoved down their throats by the paper shovers in the Pentagon.


Below is a link to another site/thread were the round is being discussed, some posters there are one s who did testing/development of the round.

Maybe some people can learn some facts about it there, like bullet weight and muzzle velocity before shooting from the lip about it's purpose and effectiveness.

http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000512-2.html
 
Todd,

I think most of the lip shooters you are speaking to have already read that thread (not to mention frequent that board) and are pretty well up to speed on the issue. I'm fully aware of what the round was designed for, and I'm fully aware that Gary and many others believe that the round is ideal for its intended purpose. Personally, based on what I've read, they are right in my very humble opinion. If that's what they want, let 'em have it. I'm in no position to question them. However, this round is not a perfect man stopper. They haven't invented that yet. I'm sure that's what Awerbuck meant, and what LT was trying to convey. The whole point of the NSR is to overcome this fact. I don't see tactics changing that much in response to the new, more effective round. Confidence might improve, but that is subjective. Either way, it's a good thing. I don't think anyone will step forward and dispute that. You may see folks stepping up and claiming that it's still not good enough, while totally oblivious to the fact that there never has been a "good enough" round, and there probably never will be. Anyway, this is off topic. The discussion is about that useless abortion called the XM8, not the SPC round that it may or may not be chambered for.

Ease up a bit.
 
1 killer weapon
8 things you‘ll love about the XM8
Published By: Army Times on 3/1/2004
Author: John G. Roos

LAS VEGAS - About a year from now, the M8 - the Army‘s likely new 5.56mm assault weapon - should begin showing up in unit arms rooms. That‘s not official - the weapon is still the experimental XM8; there‘s testing yet to be done, contracts to be signed. But if any casino in this gambling mecca would take my bet that this is the American soldier‘s next rifle, I‘d put some serious cash on the line.
This former soldier, an old 11B, would stake that bet based on tips from sources and firsthand experience - I was privileged to be among the first shooting enthusiasts anywhere to put the XM8 to the test.

That‘s thanks to good fortune - and my job as an editor at Army Times Publishing Co. and organizer of the annual "Shoot-out at Blackwater" weapons-testing event in Virginia. The XM8s already underwent arctic tests in February, are now in the hands of troops in Alaska and are slated to undergo testing in the tropics (probably in Panama) in June.

The Infantry Center at Fort Benning, Ga., is currently in the early stages of an eight-week assessment of the XM8 to see how the first prototypes of the weapon meet the small-arms needs of the Army. In addition to soldiers, the assessment will involve Marines, airmen and Coast Guard members.

So far, all of the testing of the XM8 has been open to press coverage. But the senior leadership at Benning recently decided to deny access to reporters to ensure an unbiased assessment environment free of outside distractions, said Rich McDowell, Benning‘s public affairs officer.

The XM8 will be put through a final workout in the desert - Arizona‘s Yuma Proving Ground is the likely spot - immediately after that.

The Army remains mum about how tests are going, but program officials with manufacturer Heckler & Koch Defense Inc., prime contractor for the weapons, are confident the XM8s will measure up to the challenges of the environmental testing. They‘re so confident that they invited hundreds of journalists writing for defense, firearms and related publications to put three XM8 variants to the test during the annual SHOT Show here.

On Feb. 11, about 120 firearms specialists gathered at the Las Vegas Police Department firing range to try out the new carbines.

I was privileged to be the first journalist to fire the XM8 Baseline Carbine. I don‘t say that lightly. Two colleagues and I tried to find things that weren‘t quite right with the weapon‘s design and functioning, but failed on both accounts.

Here are eight cool things shooters will like about the XM8:

1. It‘s light. The baseline carbine model currently weighs in at 6.25 pounds (the objective weight is 5.7 pounds), including an integrated sight with infrared laser and illuminator, red dot reflex sight and integrated mount. By comparison, an M4 modular weapon system with rail attachment, backup sights, M68 Close Combat Optic and standard laser/illuminator systems tips the scales at 8.85 pounds.

2. It comes with a cutting-edge sighting system. The XM8‘s battery-powered sight houses a red dot close-combat optic that incorporates an infrared laser aimer and illuminator. The shooter controls the sight‘s functions through a wireless switch that can be mounted anywhere on the weapon. The sight combines all the capabilities of the separate close-combat optic, AN/PEQ-2 laser and AN/PAQ-4 designator systems normally mounted on M4s.

3. It‘s easy to zero. The sight has a backup etched reticle and comes factory zeroed. It retains its zero position through a positive-locking mounting setup.

4. It has no rails. Designers fashioned integral, flush-mounting, metal-lined attachment points on the XM8‘s handguard and receiver. Standard 1913 adapters can be mounted on the attachment points so operators can continue to use lights, lasers and other items already in the inventory.

5. It needs little maintenance. H&K officials say the XM8 can fire more than 15,000 rounds without need for lubrication or cleaning, even under the most extreme operating conditions.

6. It‘s easy to clean. Unlike the M16/M4 series, the XM8‘s gas system doesn‘t blow gases and their carbon-fouling elements into the receiver during firing. Instead, about 90 percent of the gases created during firing are vented through a gas port under the front of the barrel; the other 10 percent are used to cycle the weapon. This new design reduces average cleaning time to four minutes, compared with the 14-minute average cleaning time for an M4.

7. It‘s tough. Between shooters, H&K officials alternated sticking the carbine in a drum of water and burying it in sand. Despite that treatment and the thousands of rounds put through the weapons at the range, there wasn‘t a single misfire or stoppage. The weapon‘s cold hammer-forged barrel has a service life of 20,000 rounds, and has blow-out vents to direct energy and gases from a catastrophic chamber failure forward and away from the shooter.

8. It‘s ambidextrous. Lefties will find a southpaw-friendly, centrally located charging handle that doubles as a forward assist slide, an ambidextrous magazine release, bolt catch, safety/selector lever and release lever for the multiposition, collapsible butt stock. All shooters will be able to keep their firing hand on the pistol grip while loading, unloading or charging the weapon.

Putting it to the test

Despite the XM8 carbine‘s light weight, it feels like the substantial weapon it is. That‘s important. Shooters won‘t be afraid to use it to its full potential, including using the double magazine as a firing support when shooting from the prone position.

The tested weapons have a cyclic rate of fire of 750 rounds per minute - about average for assault weapons. More important, they have a sustained fire rate of 85 rpm for 210 rounds, compared with 50 rpm for 210 rounds for an M4.

Although the tested weapons had only a semi-auto/full auto selector switch, company literature indicates a two- or three-round burst selector will be available as an option on production weapons.

At 33.3 inches with the stock extended, the carbine‘s overall length is the same as a 14.5-inch barreled M4. It felt shorter than that, though, the first time I raised it to my shoulder. My eye was closer to the rear of the sight than I like when shooting, but the weapon‘s relatively mild recoil precluded forehead souvenirs. The eye/sight standoff distance will be a bit greater, of course, for shooters wearing ballistic vests and other combat gear.

Trigger pull was sure and responsive. Popping off two- or three-round bursts was no problem and could be done with minimal (though perceptible) barrel climb. The weapon‘s ramped cheek rest allows a shooter to get a comfortable "cheek weld" on the stock, and allows the shooter to fire with his head up, rather than from a less natural position necessitated by other types of rear sights.

The all-in-one optics eliminate the need to attach various accessories to a rail or upper receiver. The illuminated red-dot reticle delivers quick target acquisition with both eyes open. More important, the optics retain their zero even after being removed from and reinstalled on the weapon.

The 30-round polymer magazines clip together at two half-moon connecting points. It will be interesting to see how well these stand up under hard use. Then again, metal magazines aren‘t soldier-proof.

XM8 program officials plan to field a new bayonet/wire-cutter combo, manufactured by Camillus, with the carbine variant.

Possible improvements

About the only improvement my colleagues and I could suggest would involve integrating some type of ammo-level indicator - either a numeric device or a graduated bar - into the optical sight so the shooter would know precisely how much ammo remains in the magazine(s). The clear-sided magazine now makes it possible to do this with a glance, but that requires the shooter to look away from the enemy‘s direction.

The Army is considering adding some type of lifetime monitoring system to each weapon, Army Times has learned, so data such as the number of rounds fired during a particular timeframe or over the entire life of a weapon could be retrieved by waving an electronic reader over the weapon. The system might also include the ability to inventory the weapons with an electronic reader.

The bottom line: The XM8 looks like a new assault weapon that will be arriving soon at an arms room near you.

From what I‘ve seen, you won‘t be disappointed.

John G. Roos, a retired Army officer, is the editor of Armed Forces Journal. He organizes an annual weapons "Shoot-out at Blackwater," featuring the latest weapons, ammunition and related products for the military. Staff writer Matthew Cox contributed to this report.

See the XM8 in action

Want to see for yourself how the XM8 performs? Videos of the demonstration in Las Vegas.

Click here to view images of the XM8 on the PEO Soldier website.
 
If the Army had taken all the money spent on XM8 development... and spent it on training instead, I bet we'd have soldiers who could keep their weapon clean enough to shoot, and shoot well enough to get bullets on the target, even with their 'old' M16 rifles.

I don't really believe that the XM8 will be 'soldier-proof' to the extent it needs no maintenance, repair parts, cleaning, or will turn recruits into expert marksmen with a few training sessions in boot camp-- then nothing until they try to fire their first 'real' shot.

I don't disagree that the 5.56 NATO is anemic compromise round. It will usually kill the enemy at usual engagement distances. If the rifle was my only weapon I'd want one a little punchier too; something that was guaranteed to turn the enemy into pink mist at any conceivable distance. But, the rifle and ammunition is only one tool in the soldier's box. Air strikes and artillery are an awe inspiring tool, but are only good if you have a radio capable of getting your request out. Somebody decided that bigger radio and a lighter rifle/ammunition combo was a more optimal combination for getting the job done on an 'average' battlefield. (Not just the radio, but every piece of technology the soldiers carries is a factor in the price/performance/weight equation.) The nature of these compromises ensured we'll never get a rifle that's perfect for every job, at least with the present technology.

Hackworth's article, like most of his articles, ignores subtle little nuances on the way to declaring his overwhelming support (or opposition). This one is especially confusing because he's railing against both the M16 and the 5.56 round at the same time, neither of which deserve the degree of ire he's presented. Then again, every thing with Hackworth seems to be good or bad, black or white, solid gold or a steaming pile.

As far as the AK-47 shooting a better round than the M16: Why did the Russians and other top-tier commie countries switch to the 5.45 round, AFTER seeing the US experience with the 5.56 NATO?
 
If the Army had taken all the money spent on XM8 development... and spent it on training instead, I bet we'd have soldiers who could keep their weapon clean enough to shoot, and shoot well enough to get bullets on the target, even with their 'old' M16 rifles.

XM8 development costs are listed officially as $5 million... that's extremely cheap and wouldn't convert into training by much (besides, there's a serious case of diminished returns in regards to training). At worst, you could say development was $60 million because of the XM29... but that's still in development and pending (moreover it's like attributing the entire costs of the space program to any spin-off product created).
 
Uh, quick question...

I just wanna do a reality check here.....

Is there any REAL plan to make an xm8 in any caliber other than 5.56?

'cause if there isn't, or if Uncle Sam and H&K aren't aware of any such plan, the 6.8 vs 6.5 vs 5.56 discussion's pretty much a moot point.
 
US should really go to a slightly heavier small arms round, that would be capable of replacing both .223 and .308 weapons systems. Don't know if 6x45mm is it, but something close to it, definitely.

John
 
Why all the fuss? Why don't we just give our military AK-47's? Cheap, compact, indestructible, lightweight and easy to replace out there in the sandbox.

Oh yeah -- there's that 7.62 projectile to speak of as well.
 
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