The plastic, no-account M-16 rabbit shooter that our Army warriors have painfully. .

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Quote from XM8 article:

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While the project manager emphasizes a lot of scrutiny remains before the XM8 could become the new generation assault rifle, he's confident the evaluations will be positive.

That confidence stems from H & K's initial test against an assault rifle system similar to the one being used in the MX8. Testers fired several hundred thousand rounds through a variety of different weapons. For instance, they took 10 weapons and fired 10,000 out of each weapon without cleaning them. Of the ten weapons tested there was only one mechanical failure. Additionally, the weapons' accuracy shifted less than 5 percent from factory specifications.

Firing 10,000 rounds each from 10 XM8 weapons without cleaning them resulted in only one mechanical failure. "Such a firing would wear out the weapons currently in our inventory," Clarke said.

The Test and Evaluation Command will use two types of testing -- developmental and operational -- to ascertain the XM8s viability.

Developmental testing is similar to what Consumer Reports magazine would do, Clarke explained.

"We will super-cool the weapon. We will fire it to failure to see what breaks," Clarke explained. "We'll drop it, we'll put chemicals on it to see how it reacts. That will provide the hard data to build a case for reliability, availability and maintainability, or not."

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When I read this, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. Finally someone willing to rigorously, scientifically test a weapon. This is exactly what I advocated during the XM8 vs. M16 debate; that is, that someone take 10 factory M16s and shoot them until they drop and develop some MRBF data.

I'm old enough to realize that political considerations could still screw up objective testing of the XM8 (reference the Stryker armored car vs. M113 Gavin debate), but if this article is true, it's a good sign that they know what they're doing.

John
 
I'm old enough to realize that political considerations could still screw up objective testing of the XM8 (reference the Stryker armored car vs. M113 Gavin debate), but if this article is true, it's a good sign that they know what they're doing.
Hmm, another Sparky disciple? NOW it's time to move this thread.....

The Stryker was not chosen because it is a better battlefield taxi then the M113. It was chosen because it can be deployed on the battlefield more like the desired "future" armored vehicle (which doesn't exist) than the M113. Whether it is worth the money, or can be deployed reasonably from a C130 is a whole 'nother thang. BTW Hack has attacked Mr. Sparks in print. He probably couldn't get in touch with him, the coathanger antenna on his helmet was out of alignment, I guess.

How about if we all pretend that those Officers in the Army who just whacked the Iraqis (again) are smart, hard-working, professional, taxpayers, understand what soldiers need, understand the requirements of a battle rifle in modern combat, and want the best for our soldiers?
 
"Internet commando? He was in Korea and Vietnam and a war correspondant after that."

I have one problem with that: He was an officer.
 
My only hope for the XM-8 is that it gets fielded with the new 6.8MM or 6.5MM rounds. To bother fielding this at all in 5.56MM would be a misplaced effort. In as much as I dislike the M-16, the time and expense to replace it along the the retaining etc... the value decreases substantially in this new system.
5.56MM looses way too much from a short tube like the XM-8 has. So other than reliababity improvements, we will only get leathality issues compounded.
 
This gets interesting the further it goes.

I saw the Army Times article about the XM-8 while standing in the checkout line at the Base Exchange. Flipping through it, I just chuckled. I told my wife it would generate all sorts of debate on THR and other forums. And I pray to Gawd that the DoD doesn't wind up with the damned thing. This is coming from somebody who has a soft spot in his heart for the folks who work at Flambeau Plastics in his hometown. ;)

Re: Hackworth. I've been in the Pentagon when his name comes up. Laughter ensues. From senior officers at grades I'll never attain. It's great that Lobotomy Boy and Risasi are sensitive for the man, but truthfully, if Audie Murphy took his Congressional Medal of Honor and tried to start a new religion, there wouldn't be many folks willing to convert. Nice medal, hero and all...
 
Anyone know what the velocity of 5.56 would be out of those XM8 barrel lengths?
 
Geech, wouldn't be too hard to figure out.

Let me dig in the ballistics software and report back.
 
xm8_still-lifepopup.jpg

Is this what they are talking about? It just doesn't look like something I would take seriously as a weapon. It looks more like something I would of wanted as a cool toy when I was 9.
 
Is this what they are talking about? It just doesn't look like something I would take seriously as a weapon. It looks more like something I would of wanted as a cool toy when I was 9.

Didn't they say that about the M-16? :)

Seriously, 5.56 out of that short a barrel (what is it, 11"?) seems like a bad idea. I believe every four inches loses another 100 fps (roughly), so the stuff coming out of the XM8 will be around 200 fps slower.

If they go with the XM8, they better switch to a true intermediate cartridge. If they stick with 5.56, I'd much rather they keep the M16.
 
12 inch barrel length for the carbine version.
9 inch barrel for the compact carbine version.

5.56 NATO will not reliably fragment at velocities less than 2600 fps.

If the terminal ballistics of the round out to 200-300 yards is less then this, then the DoD might as well as chamber the XM8 in 22 Long Rifle. And save on weight of the ammo. Because the 5.56 round will become nothing more than a glorified 22 Long Rifle Cartridge.

Below is from the following source: http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#fragrange

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Q. At what range will M193 fragment? How about M855?

Assuming true M193 or M855 ammo, velocity is the key. Velocity is dependent on barrel length and environmental conditions.

As barrel length increases, the bullet is propelled faster by the expanding gasses in the barrel, imparting more velocity on the bullet, resulting in a longer range before a fired bullet drops below 2700 fps. A shorter barrel imparts less velocity, and therefore the bullet has less range.

Temperature, altitude and humidity are other factors. As temperature or altitude increases, air becomes less dense and bullets travel faster. Contrary to common conceptions, as humidity increases air also becomes less dense and helps bullets retain velocity.

It is important, then, to keep in mind that any statistics given can only be approximate and can be affected by a wide range of factors. But as a baseline, these numbers are what you could expect for 75° F, 25% humidity, at sea level, from various barrel lengths:

Distance (meters) to 2700 fps_____M193_________M855
20" Barrel_____________________190-200m______140-150m
16" Barrel_____________________140-150m_______90-95m
14.5" Barrel_____________________95-100m______45-50m
11.5" Barrel_____________________40-45m_______12-15m




As you can see, barrel length and ammo selection make a major impact on fragmentation range

wund5.jpg


Q. So, velocity is a critical component for the wound profile. How fast must the bullet be traveling when it hits its target in order to fragment reliably?

Testing by combat surgeon Col. Martin L. Fackler, MD (USA Medical Corps, retired), determined that M193 and M855 bullets need to strike flesh at 2,700 feet per second in order to reliably fragment. Between 2,500 fps and 2,700 fps, the bullet may or may not fragment and below 2,500 fps, no significant fragmentation is likely to occur. If there isn't enough velocity to cause fragmentation, the result is a deep, 22 caliber hole, except an area where the yawing occurred, where the diameter of the hole grows briefly to the length of the bullet

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As you can see...the very short barrel on the XM8 is not a good thing.

For Civilians..using varmint rounds such as a 40 Grain Hornady VMAX..this isn't much of a problem. However for shooters using FMJ Ammo..this is a major concern.
 
What happened to all the rage about the Black Hills 77-grain OTM? I believe it was Mk262 IIRC? I thought its effective range was about 150-170 meters out of an M4. Why not just drop M855 and switch to this cartridge?
 
"Because the 5.56 round will become nothing more than a glorified 22 Long Rifle Cartridge."

This is obviously a gross exageration. From the data you provide, M193 has a velocity of 2700 fps at 40-50 meters. At the same distance a .22LR HP will have less than half that velocity. This of course is not to mention that the bullets are completely different.
According to the stats I have seen on the current Iraq conflict, the vast majority of firefights are occuring within this range. In fact, the vast majority of sniper engagements have been at less than 100 meters.
 
"According to the stats I have seen on the current Iraq conflict, the vast majority of firefights are occuring within this range. In fact, the vast majority of sniper engagements have been at less than 100 meters."

I can think of a couple of reasons WHY the engagement distances are short...(1.) Iraqis are armed with AK-47's or AK-74's and Allied Troops are armed with rifles in 5.56 NATO.
(Naturally given the fleeting nature of "targets" coupled with the fact that the rifle in question isn't very accurate (or effective) at longer ranges..the soldier is less likely to engage at longer distances. And (2.) the types of Terrain and Visibility can determine ranges at which most soldiers will engage each other.

Of course if you feel that you are comfortable being limited to 40 meters (or 12 meters..)..hey more power to you!

As for myself..I prefer having a rifle and cartridge that remains extremely lethal at ranges greater than 40 meters...just my personal preference...
 
As barrel length increases, the bullet is propelled faster ... A shorter barrel imparts less velocity, and therefore the bullet has less range.

This is an oversimplification, and not entirely true, for the insinuation is that the longer the barrel, the faster the bullet will fly. This is only true up to a point, at which longer barrels will actually make the bullet slower. There are a few different factors, including what type powder you're using...

John
 
Bostonterrier97
Actually my preferences for a rifle or cartridge are not an issue.
The issue is comparing a lead bullet at 1100 fps to a jacketed bullet at 2700 fps.
To me, it doesn't compute.
 
What happened to all the rage about the Black Hills 77-grain OTM? I believe it was Mk262 IIRC?

It all seemed to go rather quiet, which might or might not be associated with reported failures, including one Iraqi who carried on fighting after receiving seven solid body hits at around 25 metres.

According to the stats I have seen on the current Iraq conflict, the vast majority of firefights are occuring within this range. In fact, the vast majority of sniper engagements have been at less than 100 meters.

True, but the fighting still going on in Afghanistan is often at many times that distance. It would not be sensible to select equipment which is good in only one scenario.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum
 
OK, somebody splain me this:

If the XM8 is a 5.56mm, why in HELL did they not design it to work with the std M16 magazine of which there are at least 1 x 10^73 already available? Seems like a big boondoggle right there to me. :uhoh:
 
dwkennedy,

'Far as I know, the USMC recieved the A2 as general issue before the Army did. A friend who went to Paradise Island in '86 used the A2 in boot camp, while another friend, who went in the Army, was issued an A1 when he arrived at Ft. Bragg almost a year later.
 
Tamara, I for the life of me can't remember when the Army got the A2 but depending on what unit your friend was in, he/she might have received an A1 while other units on Bragg were getting the A2. side note: My personal favorite thing about the A2 was the handguards. God, I hated those slippery A1 buggers.
 
Hackworth seems awefully sure this new plactic fantastic is a winner.
With no real world record behind the new fangled Xmate he must be getting his info from the gun rags...who know all, see all...!

S-
 
and at last our soldiers will have a rifle that's GI-proof

Bull????, NOTHING is GI proof.

This statement alone ravishes the credability of the entire article.

the .270S&W (heh) aka 6.8SPC may be a little better than 5.56. But it's not better than .308 and definately not better than .30-06.

Carlos Hathcock's biography shows one clear example of .30-06 and .308 failures to stop. It took somewhere around 6 rounds each from a .30-06 and .308 to finally stop the guy. (at various ranges, eventually under 300yards.)

Some people just need to be shot more.

None of these guns are instant-death rays, and the sooner everyone realises this, the better off we will be.

Expecting any rifle to put down everyone it touches with one shot every time is a fallicy, and likely to get any of it's proponents killed.
 
Expecting any rifle to put down everyone it touches with one shot every time is a fallicy, and likely to get any of it's proponents killed.

Absolutely correct - not even a .50 cal does that EVERY time. It's all a matter of percentages. Judging by the reports so far, the 5.56mm fails to put down its targets, even with multiple hits, too often for comfort. The 6.8mm ought to do so a much higher percentage of the time and may therefore be worth having for that reason (indeed, it was specifically developed for that reason...).

The 6.8mm is not as powerful as the 7.62x51, but from the evidence so far the bullet tumbles more quickly and fragments out to at least 300m to multiply the wounding effect. This is something that the M80 7.62mm does not do, so the wounding effect of the 6.8mm may actually be greater.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum
 
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