What About the Other Guy?

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The key to good FOF training is proper planning and execution. The scenarios have to be properly designed and ran. This isn’t the kind of thing that you can do by getting a bunch of friends together with airsoft guns or paintball. The Army has formal training in planning and conducting force on force training . I attended one of the first observer/controller courses back in the 1980s when MILES was being fielded. It’s a lot more complicated then finding a good engagement simulator.
 
Here's one that didn't go so well. How come our folks who always post a headline attaboy missed it? Where's the plus ones?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/louisiana-dad-killed-teen-entered-underage-daughters-room

A Louisiana father is dead after a teenager he’d ordered to stay away from his 14-year-old daughter allegedly snuck into her bedroom window with a ladder and shot him during a confrontation, according to local police.

The Zachary Police Department said Nicholas Mcquirter, 17, allegedly shot Dezmon Hamilton, 34, multiple times. Authorities said the two exchanged gunfire and the suspect was also wounded.

After Hamilton caught the teen in his house, the girl’s mother and grandmother took the 14-year-old over to the side to have a talk with her, McDavid said. As that happened, Mcquirter and Hamilton got into an argument.

"And then gunshots were fired," McDavid said.
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As Jeff pointed out, running FOF - you need to know what you are doing. I wouldn't take an FOF experience unless the instructor could demonstrate they took training such as https://krtraining.com/KRTraining/Classes/AirsoftFOF.html

Karl teaches FOF at Givens' TacCon. I would also ask if the instructor had gone through other dedicated instructor courses so they know how to teach.

Here's Karl commenting on his FOF experience and how it works out for some people. https://blog.krtraining.com/polite-society-2014-southnarc-force-on-force-aar/

Interesting screw ups.

The past 2 years, I have had the opportunity to participate in SouthNarc’s (Craig Douglas) “Live Scenario-Based Experiential Learning Clinic”, which is basically a force-on-force exercise using Simunition FX, live role players, and ambiguous situations that test the participants’ tactics and decision making skills under extreme stress. The exercise is limited to 12 participants, who are kept separate from the action area, and send in to the exercise individually, such that the exercise is reset and repeated for each participant. This year’s scenario equipped the participant with a G17 Simunition gun (holstered and concealed), and very basic instructions to help Dr. Aprill, who has injured his ankle, to the airport with his bag. *ACTION!*

After reaching center of room 10-15 yds into room and helping Dr. Aprill towards the door, frantic woman runs in towards the participant, screaming, “you’ve got to help me, he’s trying to kill me”. She has a pair of large, stabby scissors in her hand, although she is holding them in a neutral, non-threatening manner, palms-out at or above her shoulders. After giving participant time to interact with her for approximately 20-30 seconds, a 2nd man runs into room WITH A GUN after the woman. He is holding a BADGE in his other hand and wearing casual/plain clothes (not in uniform) but does not otherwise identify himself as LEO (law enforcement officer).

The results of this scenario were, to be frank, highly concerning:

  • 10 out of 12 participants either shot the officer, were shot by the officer, or both. Staggeringly, more than a few of the participants SAW THE BADGE and chose to engage in a standoff with the officer (and eventually get shot) or engage him with gunfire out of a mistrust that he was actually law enforcement.
  • Multiple participants failed to notice the weapon in the female role player’s hand
  • 1 participant put 3 rounds into the woman’s chest, even after she dropped the scissors as instructed, because she didn’t obey subsequent commands to get on the ground. Does anyone have any illusions about deadly force justification still being present after she’s dropped the weapon?
  • 1 participant had a shooter-induced malfunction after a single shot and was unable to clear the resulting double feed (support hand thumb behind the slide caused a double feed after the first shot).
  • 1 participant admitted to ‘freezing’ during debrief once the shooting started.
  • Several participants, holding a projectile weapon, got progressively closer to the female threat, holding a sharp stabby weapon, when she didn’t immediately obey commands to drop the scissors. The participants who engaged in this behavior were, in all cases, completely unaware that they did it, even during debrief. (We have found this type of subconscious behavior to be relatively common in KR Training AT-2 and AT-7 Force-on-Force classes.)
  • None of the other participants utilized available cover/concealment within the room before the second role player came into the room. Only one or two eventually attempted to use cover once the shooting started.
  • More than one participant, myself included, held onto Dr. Aprill’s bag far longer than necessary or that the circumstances would dictate. I suppose I could use a large bag to help fend off an edged weapon attack, but my firearm might be more effective, and I certainly wasn’t toting around the bag with that intent in mind.
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One comment on the last bullet point. At the old NTI, we had to arrive at our friend's house with a pizza. Upon coming to the front door, you see blood spatter. What to do?

Several participants refused to enter. However, we were told that is the right decision but for the exercise you have to enter. The interesting thing is that most carried the pizza through the fight that ensued. NOT I though, I tossed it immediately and was praised in AAR for not being stupid.

I note that I am not perfect and was righteously killed several times and had the bruises and scabs from some of the close in airsoft, sims interactions. Shot in the back three times by the nice blond lady who was a secret accomplish in the Jewelry store robbery, in one case.
 
https://ccwsafe.com/blog/p414034755

Here is a story where a bad guy was still functioning for quite a bit after the revolver ran dry. Now, if there were two burglars, our defender (who showed true grit) would have been out of luck.

One thing as a side comment is that she called her husband first. I've seen that in other reports and tried to drill into my family NOT to call me first, if you think it is bad call 011 first. You read of someone calling hubby who races home, that's nice but I'd rather have the law racing to my house first.
 
Gem - in the Louisiana link, the article makes no mention about WHO is the owner of the gun in this tragedy. If it was the father's, how did the teen perp get it away from him? If the teen brought it, it may have not been seen by the father until it was too late.
 
I've encountered one attacker but also up to three at once. It's OK, I carry a reload for a reason.....it's rude not to "bring enough for everyone." LOL

I think once the shooting starts the others start to run off.
 
I operate under the assumption that I'll be facing more than one opponent if I'm ever in another spot of trouble. So far it has never happened in the years since I retired out from police work. Sure hope it stays that way - and I'm willing to do whatever is needed to avoid that kind of fun.... Put simply - the good guys don't always win. The best armed confrontation - is the one you avoid...
 
GEM said:
https://ccwsafe.com/blog/p414034755

Here is a story where a bad guy was still functioning for quite a bit after the revolver ran dry. Now, if there were two burglars, our defender (who showed true grit) would have been out of luck.

One thing as a side comment is that she called her husband first. I've seen that in other reports and tried to drill into my family NOT to call me first, if you think it is bad call 011 first. You read of someone calling hubby who races home, that's nice but I'd rather have the law racing to my house first.
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Sometimes the call is to get coaching, not expecting the husband to race home. Coaching can start immediately, police may get there too late to stop things. I remember a case from a few years ago, in a "duty to retreat" jurisdiction, the wife was home with the kids, BG broke in, not sure if she called husband before or after retreating with the kids into the attic or at what point she did call police, but when BG broke into the attic husband instructed her to shoot him, and kept saying "Shoot him again" until BG was no longer a threat. Wife and kids thankfully lived.
 
Crime is rare up here, but the few times there were some robbery sprees it was always at least two perps.

Plenty of video on ASD and crime stories seem to show that they go in packs now, especially car jackers.

I would always assume there's probably a second these days
 
Here's something I learned to expect on the street when I was on patrol and looking for trouble... If I saw one guy in a vehicle by himself my "radar" was rarely activated unless there were other factors also present... If I saw two young guys in a vehicle - not specifically travelling somewhere on a road with other traffic... I immediately started looking them over, for additional signs that they were up to something (as a particular statute said.. "in a manner, place or time, not usual for ordinary citizens...). If I had three or more in a car cruising, the moment I spotted them it was time to begin considering whether to start a second car my way - or to call in plainclothes types for further action.

Most times my "radar" wasn't worth much and after a bit of attention I looked elsewhere. Enough times, though, that instinct was right on the money and I found myself looking at young people intending harm.... Wish I could say that I knew many cops that deliberately went looking for trouble - but that's just not the case.... The more trouble you look for on the street - the more bad situations you're likely to find yourself in... Not movie, or TV type stuff - mostly low level stupid stuff by desperate folks not much worried about the consequences of a strong arm robbery (purse snatch) or burglary, or car theft... Be careful what you look for... you just might find it...
 
Kleanbore said:
It would be exceptionally imprudent for anyone facing violent criminal actors to rely upon anyone who is not actually present at the scene for "coaching".
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It would certainly be preferable for the wife to herself be trained and practiced. But even nowadays many women are not. Just curious, would you say your wife is equally skilled in self-defense as you are?
 
old lady new shooter said:
I strongly advocate for women being able to defend themselves.
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Different subject.

Ms Herman used the revolver with adequate skill.

But she called her husband rather than 911. Not a good idea.

And--had the man died, the husband's advice might well have proved very damaging to her.
 
As I reflect across nearly 30 years of being armed, I can confirm, most of the "serious" encounters I have had were with two or three assailants. None wanted to continue the game once they realized they were about to get shot. One even physically removed his rather outspoken accomplice. (He bear hugged his comrade from behind and dragged him across the street).

For the solo would-be muggers command voice, pepper spray in hand (and being shaken), or me reaching to my 4 O'Clock position was enough. The one large "aggressive panhandler" might have been reacting to command voice or it could have been my hand "going for something." He couldn't back up fast enough and began to babble, his well-planned (and well practiced) script was immediately forgotten.

*In that case I wasn't armed with anything as I was on my way into the courthouse......the one with the metal detector. Once there I told them about him, apparently he's a regular and when I left 15 minutes later he was gone. I assume the security on site ran him off.
 
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