Springfield Browning

Anyone wanna place bets on production models not shipping with a Heine Ledge style rear sight, much less a blended front dovetail.

I want to be excited, but this reminds me of my first car show at McCormick. My 14 year old self couldn’t wait to see those amazing cars rolling down my block soon, only to realize later that those concept cars were as fake as the ladies showing them off.

Crossing fingers. And toes.

Sounds like a solid deal. I want one once they hit the shelf's.

WB

I think some of the cost savings is in the finish too. Im sure polishing and bluing would add a bit to the price vs a modern coating

Skylerbone said:

Anyone wanna place bets on production models not shipping with a Heine Ledge style rear sight, much less a blended front dovetail.

I want to be excited, but this reminds me of my first car show at McCormick. My 14 year old self couldn’t wait to see those amazing cars rolling down my block soon, only to realize later that those concept cars were as fake as the ladies showing them off.

Crossing fingers. And toes.

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I'm thinking I really want to get one before they start cutting corners to save costs. The production guns that were reviewed are all showing the same sights as the pre-production ones.

Mars5l said:

I think some of the cost savings is in the finish too. Im sure polishing and bluing would add a bit to the price vs a modern coating

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I'm betting the majority of the savings are because it's assembled in Geneseo but the parts are all undoubtedly made in Brazil or Croatia. The price point here is the same as for the Defender 1911, so the parts are undoubtedly imported. Which, to be honest, I'm OK with as long as the parts are good, which they usually are for SA.

sevt_chevelle said:

I will be getting one!

Hey Smith & Wesson, what's your excuse for not releasing an updated 3rd gen?

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They’re probably still figuring out how to integrate the Hillary hole.

Jim Watson said:

The Germans did not even start work on what became the P38 until 1935. A crash program, they had a final form in 1938 and were building guns in 1939. Had to wait until 1940 to issue, the holster makers were slower to get going.
gs.

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If you are implying that the concept of a firing pin block did not exist until the Germans created it out of thin air, in 1935, such should be backed up with research like a patent search. Google's patent search engine is cumbersome, chaotic, and finding something is more happenstance than anything else, but I did find that Pedersen was creating patents with firing pin safeties, though I am sure, given day's and years of searching, I would find an exact firing pin block patent. But this is what Pedersen is filing around 1919 to 1922


J. D., PEDERSEN,

Firearm 1,410,268, Patented Mar. 21, 1922.

text additionally found in patent 1,410,269.

Also, when the firearm is provided with a main slide comprising a firing-pin, to pre vent discharge of the firearm by locking the main slide of the firearm to prevent effective contact between the firing-pin and the cartridge, so that action of the firing member or hammer on the cartridge will not explode the cartridge

If Pedersen is creating patents which prevent incidental, or accidental contact between the firing pin and primer, then it can be certain, that "this was "something in the air". Did Swartz just come up with his firing pin block on 1 Jan 1937, and then only patent it that year, or did Swartz see enough accidental drop discharges of 1911's through the years to have been working on it well before then?

I am also quite certain the Germans incorporated a firing pin block in their service pistol because the Germans have a more safety oriented military culture. Unlike the Allies, who were extremely wasteful of the lives of the soldiers, the Germans always knew they had a limited manpower pool, and could not win a war of attrition by trading bodies. This is very evident as they were the only to issue parachutes to their WW1 fighter pilots, built massive, highly protective trench shelters, etc. And I would claim, they decided they wanted a pistol that would not remove soldier's through accidental drops. And I claim, firing pin blocks had been invented, probably by the 1880's, if only I could find the patent. Virtually ever mechanical firearm feature had been patented before 1900, the problem is, finding the patent!

I have a German occupation P-35, a beautiful T Series, and a forged frame Mk III, so why in the hell would I need one of these knock-offs…..



Wait a minute, what am I doing?!? I’m starting to sound like my wife!

Hell yes I want one!

Why, exactly, is Croatia even mentioned in this tread and in what context? They don't make and did not make a Hi-Power... The logical guess is a gun assembled from parts, produced in Turkey - why Croatia, what am I missing?!?

Plan2Live said:

Question #1 - Why did FN stop manufacturing it? If the answer is low demand, what makes Springfield think they will have a different experience?

Question #2 - Does the hammer still bite the hand?

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As was stated earlier the FN tooling was nearing end of life. Also the Brits and the Australians were ending their long running contracts. Without a large military contract the tooling would never have paid for itself. On the commercial front it had not been a good seller for decades for FN. The cost was too high and we live in a Glock tactical plastic world.

The hammer on this one claims to be no bite but even C&S' No Bite hammer and Novak's No Bite mod still bite people. The only 100% way to stop the hammer bite is a beavertail. The hammer pinches the web of the hand at the lower part where it meets the frame not the spur of the hammer.

Jim Watson said:

Appearances deceive. The standard BHP is and always has been SAO, even though FN eventually made some DA variants and Browning USA had the similar appearing BDM.

Timelines are completely different. Mr Browning and FN started work on a RFP from France in 1923. After Mr Browning's death in 1926, D. Saive at FN kept plugging away. The design had been essentially finalized in 1931 and the only obvious change since 1929 was to delete the 1911 style separate barrel bushing. But France reneged on the deal - I have seen a picture of a last gasp FN offering in 7.65 French - and what with the Great Depression, nobody else took an interest until Belgium went with the home market FN as the P35.

The Germans did not even start work on what became the P38 until 1935. A crash program, they had a final form in 1938 and were building guns in 1939. Had to wait until 1940 to issue, the holster makers were slower to get going.

I don't know how the California drop test compares with Mr Drake's, but while Colt, Kimber, and Auto Ordnance 1911 types have mechanical firing pin obstructions, others including Wilson, Baer, Brown, Springfield, Nighthawk, and SVI do not; presumably depending on titanium firing pins and strong springs.

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The BHP/P35 was always designed as a SAO gun with a thumb safety. The above timeline is mostly accurate. Saive is the real designer of the gun we shoot today not JMB. I say this everytime the subject comes up. 99% of the time I am shouted down by someone who simply doesn't know the real history.

Jim Watson said:

It will be interesting to see real guns in knowledgeable hands. There are people who can identify the maker of a 19ll by the subtle contours of the receiver. Can you spot the source of a Browning copy that way?




They omitted the magazine disconnect, see, no pin through the trigger blade.

They claim that the high hammer rowel averts hammer bite. I dunno, I can shoot a real FN without pain.

Me, too.

But they did bring it into line with the present popular image of a BHP. And note that the price is in line with RIA 1911 above the GI configuration.

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The SA does not have the mag disconnect. It has "no bite hammer. The other thing I noticed is that the press in barrel cam which if it broke was a costly repair. I am not in a rush to get one but I will eventually and compare it to the FNs in my collection.

Skylerbone said:

Anyone wanna place bets on production models not shipping with a Heine Ledge style rear sight, much less a blended front dovetail.

I want to be excited, but this reminds me of my first car show at McCormick. My 14 year old self couldn’t wait to see those amazing cars rolling down my block soon, only to realize later that those concept cars were as fake as the ladies showing them off.

Crossing fingers. And toes.

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From what I can tell the sight is not a true Heine and I assume both parts are cast or MIM. With injection molding they can be made inexpensively and should have a contour built in which will allow them to be properly dovetailed and blended. IMHO I am with other who believe there is no way this gun is being forged in the US. I would guess Turkey or they bought someone else's tooling and sent it to Imbel. For me the forged vs cast is a stupid debate when it comes to the BHP. They were originally forged but were switched to for cost cutting reasons. FN could have made a forged frame just as strong but the cost would have been higher. They did not have CNC the way we do today. So FN used casting which was strong enough for +P and the 40 S&W round.

All in all I think that they addressed some of the biggest complaints about the BHP. The BHP is a good gun and to make it great it needs improved sights, an improved safety and a improved trigger. They addresses all of those and removed the mag disconnect.

Mizar said:

Why, exactly, is Croatia even mentioned in this tread and in what context? They don't make and did not make a Hi-Power... The logical guess is a gun assembled from parts, produced in Turkey - why Croatia, what am I missing?!?

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Croatia produces many of the polymer Springfields such as the Hellcat and XD.

Mizar said:

Why, exactly, is Croatia even mentioned in this tread and in what context? They don't make and did not make a Hi-Power... The logical guess is a gun assembled from parts, produced in Turkey - why Croatia, what am I missing?!?

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Someone trying to link it to the XD series would be my guess....

Nature Boy said:

I have a German occupation P-35, a beautiful T Series, and a forged frame Mk III, so why in the hell would I need one of these knock-offs…..



Wait a minute, what am I doing?!? I’m starting to sound like my wife!

Hell yes I want one!

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It looks like a good opportunity for those that actually want to own a Hi Power to shoot it instead of pure collectors interest, as originals are now staggeringly expensive and the value of the, continues to skyrocket at an unfathomable, shocking rate.

Mizar said:

Why, exactly, is Croatia even mentioned in this tread and in what context? They don't make and did not make a Hi-Power... The logical guess is a gun assembled from parts, produced in Turkey - why Croatia, what am I missing?!?

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Nothing. Everyone agrees that this is assembled from imported parts. I just threw out Brazil and Croatia because SA has been known to import parts from both countries. We don't know where these parts are from yet for sure. Turkey is certainly a possibility if these are basically remarked Girsans/Tisas. I sure hope they're not, though, that would remarkably dampen my enthusiasm here, less from quality concerns and more because I just try to avoid buying from countries I consider to be repressive regimes.

Mods I jumped to write with out reading priors topics.
Nevertheless, as I promised some candy delight. The Argentine is a direct connection to BHP family not copies, all made under contract as all early century Argies firearms from Herstal from machine guns, pistols and FAL rifles.
Some detective models with short barrel and as in this case standard configuration.
Also were a company that made a 22 conversion kit when firearm industry was at peak early 50 to end of 70's.
Guys if you are looking for a good guide for cleaning or assembly a BHP, visit the late Stephen Camp site (was a member here) actually his novel was good and will help his family.
My 2 cents contribution.

WVsig said:

The hammer on this one claims to be no bite but even C&S' No Bite hammer and Novak's No Bite mod still bite people. The only 100% way to stop the hammer bite is a beavertail. The hammer pinches the web of the hand at the lower part where it meets the frame not the spur of the hammer.

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I tend to disagree - a spur hammer, with a carefully ground radius on the back, seems to eliminate the hammer bite even for people with larger and beefier hands. It's empirically proven if I might say so.

Mizar said:

I tend to disagree - a spur hammer, with a carefully ground radius on the back, seems to eliminate the hammer bite even for people with larger and beefier hands. It's empirically proven if I might say so.

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You can disagree all you want it does not make it true for everyone. A lot depends on your grip and size of your hands.

When you put a radius at the back of the hammer you add more distance between it and the frame - simple as that. I believe Novak reworked BHP spur hammers like that.

Just for tickles and giggles, anyone
remember the short-lived introduction
of the Nighthawk BHP a few years
ago, just before FN stopped making
them and assembling them in
Portugal?

Mizar said:

When you put a radius at the back of the hammer you add more distance between it and the frame - simple as that. I believe Novak reworked BHP spur hammers like that.

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Still bites some shooters. It solves the problem for most shooters but not all. All poodles are dogs not all dogs are poodles. What I was attempting to point out is that not bite hammers do not guarantee the BHP will not bite all shooters.

UncleEd said:

Just for tickles and giggles, anyone
remember the short-lived introduction
of the Nighthawk BHP a few years
ago, just before FN stopped making
them and assembling them in
Portugal?

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They will still do they same custom work on your base gun. Nighthawk bought what was left at FN and in distribution once FN made the announcement they were discontinuing them. It was a win win scenario. NH got something "rare" and FN got rid of the old new stock.

Jim Watson said:

Yes, but one thing Msr Saive did was to plow in Browning design elements as they came off patent, so he doesn't get full credit. He does get the blame for the double stack magazine, necessitating the rocker beam lockwork.

I wonder what would have happened if FN had found customers for the Grand Browning - the 1911 design in a proprietary 9.65mm. It might have sold in 9mm P.

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Yeah I always found it interesting that outside the US the 1911 really is not that popular a design. The 1909 was the base for both the Grand Browning and the 1911. Other militaries around the world did not consider it a superior side arm vs what they were already fielding.

WVsig said:

Yeah I always found it interesting that outside the US the 1911 really is not that popular a design. The 1909 was the base for both the Grand Browning and the 1911. Other militaries around the world did not consider it a superior side arm vs what they were already fielding.

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The U.S. Army didn't actually love the 1911 that much either
after WWII and was looking for a new pistol. S&W offered
a version of its Model 39. But the Army decided it had
so many 1911s that its use continued. The U.S., whether
because of NATO 9mm influence or not, still wanted
another handgun and finally chose the Beretta 92. And
at the time a double action trigger was paramount.

I believe the influence of the German P-38 was strong
in the thinking of a new pistol after WWII.