Why not more pump action rifles/historically?

I think you could buy them in 35 whelen, or at least I have seen others

Was contemplating similar the other day. Pump shotguns were/are popular. Bolt action rifles were/are popular. But not the other way around. Both have semi auto and single shot as popular choices as well.

My thoughts centered around accuracy. A bolt action is easier to get a precise follow up shot with a rifle round. A pump is much faster to cycle and isnt relying on a single point of impact, but rather a spread of POIs. So each kind of plays into the ammo type.

As a side note Tippmann produced a pump action paintball marker for a long time.

Chuck R. said:

I saw the coolest, most practical pump ever that was built for timber elk hunting

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As a matter of fact you just described my "Hog-a-geddon" 7600 almost to a tee. It's a late export model, .35 Whelen 18½" carbine, w/ a bunch of 10rd mags, a suppressor, fiber optic sights and an aftermarket rubberized stock. Not chromed, though, but thanks for the tip...

Back in the day, when John Browning was still a young man, one of the issues with both lever and pump guns was that they needed very precise machining to make (and keep them functional). This is particularly true before the invention of smokeless powder--repeating BP cartridge firearms have a host of issues modern arms do not have.

They also required more material to make--and back in those days, labor was cheap and the material was expensive.

You can build a bolt gun with less material, and with fewer parts needing the maximum machining precision.

Now, as machining and industrial processes improved, the variety and kinds of firearms multiplied. But, if you only need one shot at a time, repeating arms are less required in the hunting community. And firearms that cost less, over-the-counter, were would always be more popular.

So, some of this is that, 100, 150, years ago, things were very different. Now, the labor is expensive and the material is not. We can build almost anything now and have it be reliable.

Incidentally, the Troy PAR isn't a bad adaptation of the AR15 to pump action. I bought one some years back as a way around California's assault on the opposable thumb -- with a pump you can legally have a real pistol grip. Also, since there's no buffer in the stock, you can get a decent folder out of the arrangement. And you can routinely sub-load down to .22 Magnum levels since the mechanism isn't dependent on port pressure. Takes standard Magpul mags too -- you can even drop-in a stock AR15 bolt (minus the gas rings) and some (but not all) aftermarket triggers.

Downsides: overpriced, not a semi-auto, and you need lots of practice to avoid short-stroking. Plus when you admit you own one, some other shooters will dump hate on you for living in a ban state ... thankfully, not a THR problem!

The timing is just uncanny. Yesterday I had to watch as a friend struggled over if he should buy a pump 22lr for squirrel. He isn't super happy with how his 10-22 carries and swings and had never seen a pump rifle before. The only reason I didn't whisper in his ear is the rifle he was looking at was a Rossi with the tactical furniture. For a 22 beat around the woods pump it would probably be fine but I'm not up to date on how quality Rossi guns are.

BigBlue 94 said:

As a side note Tippmann produced a pump action paintball marker for a long time.

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Oh yes the C3. Pump paintball guns are as old as the sport but that gun was special. Used propane and ignited it for the power to shoot the ball instead of the standard compressed air or CO2.

I recall reading that the reason that Pederson (yes the same Pederson that designed the WW1 Pederson device) decided to do a slide action for the model 14 was because marlin, savage, and winchester had so many patents on lever action mechanisms that it was quite difficult to come up with a decent design at that time that wouldn’t step on their toes, so it became a pump basically by default. I believe he had also worked on some pump shotguns under John Browning so he probably had some ideas kicking around in his head already.

Yes, Mr Pedersen also designed the Remington Model 10 and Model 29 shotguns around Browning and T.C. Johnson patents. My neighbor the gunsmith hated to see one coming, they were the devil to work on.

One article credits Pedersen along with C.C. Loomis for the much better Model 31, but it misspells Pedersen, too.

The Remington. 14/141 is a very interesting design, if not necessarily the most practical it could be.

The spiral magazine seems like it should be something incorporated into all tube fed guns which fire rifle rounds. I’m something even better could be come up with today. At the time, the rounds chambered in the 14 must have been spitzer type bullets. No doubt since the 35 Rem, among others, was originally chambered in a stacked magazine type rifle, the Model 8.

It really is an oddity with the whole magazine moving with the slide strike, the loading gate in the magazine tube, and the slide release button on the bolt but as was said, Pedersen was working around other patents.

That slide release button on the bolt is particularly annoying. I don’t mean to be so disparaging of it, I do like mine. The spiral mag tube is especially genius. I’ve been saying for years I wish someone made a 9mm lever action incorporating the spiral tube.

someguy2800 said:

. I’ve been saying for years I wish someone made a 9mm lever action incorporating the spiral tube.

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...and cogs in my brain start thinking of ways to incorporate a 100rd Calico magazine on a lever gun...

Being a long time 870 fan,the 760 I had in 300 Savage and I got along famously. Took several whitetails with it. When I was 19 I used my dads 760 in 30-06 to take a moose. Both of these rifles served flawlessly for many years. I had the opportunity to shoot one in 308 that was 1 moa shooter.

one thing the pumps offer is the fact your trigger finger is ready as soon as the bolt is in battery and your sight picture is held as you work the action and as a left handed pump rifle user(bolts-levers too) i have never been hit in the face with ejected caseings. the only time caseing hit my face-ear was firing a m-60 prone on a bypod in VN.

The military has driven the cogs of many firearm innovations. Muskets lead to rifling. Single shots lead to lever actions. I would say the biggest Achille's heel of a pump rifle is the same as it is for a lever action: capacity. The original Henry was a 15 round tubular magazine in 44 Henry, a rimfire round. A little bit bigger and twice the muzzle energy of a 9mm Luger. Not exactly what we would consider today as a military weapon for war. Military went a different route after the Civil War, rounds needed to be more powerful with less capacity, because they determined round effectiveness was more important than volume of fire. So came along bolt actions like the 1903 Springfield, 40-ish years after the Civil War and ending the short, scattered reign of the Henry. It was only until recently where magazines solved the capacity and power problems of military arm rifles. 308 Winchester in a 20 round magazine of an M14 Rifle beats the capacity and power of the Henry by a long shot. It just took 100 years.

someguy2800 said:

When I shot sporting clays in high school I figured out if I preloaded back on the forend on my bps that it would practically auto eject as soon as it unlocked after firing and I would get just a hair more time on the second clay. Quite a few people came up and asked how I was doing that.

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Works with 870's and Win. 1200/1300's also. When I started shooting Trap again, I put a B/C shell catcher on my 870 so the hull I would eject from pushing back on the forend wouldn't hit the guy to my right. I've since retrained myself, and surprisignly remember to pump when hunting.

I know that I am a broken record on this one, but this rifle in .357 would be just about perfect for me!

I use a replica of a Colt Lightening for Cowboy Action shooting in 45 Colt. They are fast. Mine, a Taurus, is made like the originals without a disconnector. If you forget it will fire as the bolt is slammed home if you still have the trigger pulled. On a regular range it is fairly accurate out to 100 yards, easily hitting 6-inch gongs.

someguy2800 said:

I think you could buy them in 35 whelen, or at least I have seen others

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I think that was the 7600s....this one was a 760 and IF I remember correctly the barrel had a stricken out .30-06.

The main problem with a pump or lever in military service is that it is not as sturdy or maintainable as a bolt action.
We have come a long way since 1877 when the Turks held off the Russians at Plevna for six months with a combination of Peabody Martinis and Winchester 1866s.

someguy2800 said:

I think you could buy them in 35 whelen, or at least I have seen others

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Not the 760. The 7600 was made in .35 Whelen.

I see Chuck R. beat me to it.

I think one issue that might be holding them back for hunting is the lack of "still hunting" areas available where jumping deer and fast follow up shots are the norm. Due to a lot of the larger parcels being divided up, a lot of guys are hunting from stands.

I know in my case the areas that I have permission to hunt could be pushed thorough in about 20-30 minutes IF I really took my time. So the norm is stand hunting. Although during late doe season I've doubled on a couple does (tripled once), the norm is a single shot, no need for a quick follow up. When I hunted upstate NY and went on a couple deer drives with my BIL, the norm was repeaters; levers, pumps or semis, I fit right in with my 742 in 30-06.

Around here all I see is bolt guns. Even when we push draws in western KS we carry bolt guns cause you still could see a 300yd plus shot.

entropy said:

Not the 760. The 7600 was made in .35 Whelen.

I see Chuck R. beat me to it.

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I think some guys also rechambered the .35Rem 760s in .35W also. Just for the heck of it I checked the 760/7400 prices on GB last night (Nostalgia for the one that got away??). Holy crap are the prices of the older Rem pump guns up there!

I think I remember there was an Eastern state, PA perhaps, that didn't allow semis for hunting and the Rem pumps were very popular there.

I think the single biggest reason is that the one company that made them in quantity used poor design and materials, and destroyed the idea in peoples mind.
I also think lever actions have long enough been established as the fast action. Bolts have just always been the strong action.

Pump shotguns were originally made very well, they surpassed lever, auto, bolt, single and doubles and dominated the shotgun world for 70 or so years. They seem to be falling out of favor now, but had a good run, and outlived obsolescence for decades.
I think if Ruger came out with a pump in some gimicky new caliber it would sell well. You can make a pump action with a rotating bolt (Winchester mass produced them) and it could be accurate. But it would take a company with a good reputation.

ECVMatt said:

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I know that I am a broken record on this one, but this rifle in .357 would be just about perfect for me!

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I was beginning to wonder if the Remington model 25 had been completely forgotten. Chambered in 25-20 and 32-20. I have one in 25-20 and it is a sweet little shooter

10 rounds of 25-20 ammo and smooth as butter